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And if you think the guy is lacking a single symptom...

 

"Erdogan says Muslims, not Columbus, discovered Americas"

"Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan said Saturday that the Americas were discovered by Muslims in the 12th century, nearly three centuries before Christopher Columbus set foot there.

"Contacts between Latin America and Islam date back to the 12th century. Muslims discovered America in 1178, not Christopher Columbus," the conservative president said in a televised speech during an Istanbul summit of Muslim leaders from Latin America.

 

http://www.afp.com/en/news/erdogan-says-muslims-not-columbus-discovered-americas

 

If this sounds funny..

Let me describe how it goes:

It means, for any Muslim, one thing: America is ours - NOT yours!

In a few monthes, little children from Islamabad to Tripoly will learn that this is the truth.

Edited by DADI
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And if you think the guy is lacking a single symptom...

 

"Erdogan says Muslims, not Columbus, discovered Americas"

"Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan said Saturday that the Americas were discovered by Muslims in the 12th century, nearly three centuries before Christopher Columbus set foot there.

"Contacts between Latin America and Islam date back to the 12th century. Muslims discovered America in 1178, not Christopher Columbus," the conservative president said in a televised speech during an Istanbul summit of Muslim leaders from Latin America.

 

http://www.afp.com/en/news/erdogan-says-muslims-not-columbus-discovered-americas

 

If this sounds funny..

Let me describe how it goes:

It means, for any Muslim, one thing: America is ours - NOT yours!

In a few monthes, little children from Islamabad to Tripoly will learn that this is the truth.

 

Shouldn't you mean Islamabad to Agadir?

Oh and...'conservative' president it says...I wonder what they're trying to say by that.

Edited by NickM
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The vikings were in Istanbul before the Turks.

Called Varangians but essentially Scandinavians in today's turkey. Maybe they should put on their horned helmets and go pillage the area again.

Erdogan. What a shmuck. But the people elect him.

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Regarding the Ottoman Tourists coming the the states so long ago - maybe, the Ottomans had some good sailors,

personally I go with the Irish monks, the Vikings, the Chinese - how the locals handled the tourists is another thing

Without doubt it will be claimed for Islam.

 

Regarding the bagging of USN guys - there are two things to this.

seems sometime back US forces bagged some Turkish military in Iraq during an operation....I know no details

this was seen as insulting Turkish honour etc

 

second thing is there has been an increase in a combination of nationalism and Islamism - this yout group that were involved are getting a reputation it seems - sort of local National Front

Edited by WRW
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The vikings were in Istanbul before the Turks.

Called Varangians but essentially Scandinavians in today's turkey. Maybe they should put on their horned helmets and go pillage the area again.

Erdogan. What a shmuck. But the people elect him.

 

Hm, from your link:

"In the latter part of the tenth century, the Byzantine emperor Basil II recruited a number of Varangians, reputedly Norse- men from Russia, as a personal bodyguard. The term Varangian comes from the Norse var, meaning “pledge,” and denotes one of band of men who pledged themselves to work together for profit. Usually this meant in trade, but the oath of loyalty to each other certainly had more than commercial meaning, for they were bound to fight for each other’s safety as members of merchant band. The term also refers to men who hired themselves into the service of an overlord for a set period of time, as the Norsemen did for the lords of Novgorod and Kiev in Russia. Thus, the term Varangian does not necessarily mean “Viking” or “Scandinavian,” although most of them were from that part of the world. Generally, however, it refers to the Scandinavian Russian Empire led by the city states of Kiev and Novgorod."

 

In Russian word "Varyag" refers to people coming to what is now Russia\Ukraine from Scandinavia (or Baltic Slaves territories, it is not clear for today’s history as far as I understand). Russian presence around Constantinople was significant anyway -with first successful attempt to take the city on about 907AC (resulting in beneficial trade agreement). But it is not correct to call Kiev and Novgorod "city states" - Kiev newer was, and Novgorod was later....

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Anyway Turks are relatively late-comers in what is now Turkey (like Crimean Tatars in Crimea – nearly the same timeframe) and are not the first Muslims in the region. By the way it was very interesting BBC documentary on Romea people in Turkey -direct descendants from pre-Turkish Byzantine Greek population somehow survived up till now. Turkish Empire was sort of tolerant to minorities (at least more tolerant them some European empires)

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Im not quite sure the Armenians would agree with you.

As well as Greeks, Serbs etc. – lots of people suffered from Turks over history. But reference point is important here: if we compare it not with today’s “human rights” (still far from perfect, but slaughtering cities and countries is not common practice now) but with middle ages in Europe with religious wars etc. – we may see it differently. At least Armenians in Turkey survived through Empire nearly up to national state Turkey formed, while Arabs in Spain gone centuries ago as far as I understand.

Regarding Armenian settlers, lots of Armenians moved to South of Russia and what is now Ukraine – I was born in Rostov-on-Don where up to quarter of population are ethnic Armenians once fled from different parts of Turkey , including Crimea.

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Im not quite sure the Armenians would agree with you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_genocide

 

Apparently there was a large refugee community of them in Palestine in the 1920s. No sure if they ever relocated or settled there.

 

There are two small Armenian Communities in Israel - Best known is the Armenian Quarter in the Old City of Jerusalem.

I believe the first known Church is there - St. Marcus IIRC..

Edited by DADI
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Bear in mind that the Moors in Spain were there as a result of Spain being invaded in the 7th Century. So one might disagree with any form of ethnic cleansing, but then ultimately they can be regarded as distinctly uninvited in the first place. Particularly in a Catholic nation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors

it makes the context different. Best I can tell, the Armenians were there long before the Ottoman Empire even existed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians_in_Turkey

 

I would agree the Ottomans seem to have had a relatively good record up to WW1, simply because without it the Empire could hardly have held together. But not perfect I think we would agree.

 

Almost any nation on Earth occupy current place after invading it at some stage of history, so this explanation could be widely applied. But yes, Armenians are one of the most ancient and settled nations, they were there long before not only Turks but even Greeeks and Romans. Still, keeping poor fate of Armenians in Turkey in mind, there is completely opposite example of large group (2000 to 8000, according to different sources) of Don Cossacks, named “Nekrasovtsy” after their initial leader, who fled with their families to Turkish Empire after failed uprising against Tsar in 1708 – to return back to Russia (SU) only in 1962, with about 1500 people (another ~200 went to US). About 7000 returned earlier in 1950th from other places previously controlled by Turkish empire. They kept their orthodox Christianity and traditions and were not oppressed by Turks despite of numerous wars between Russia and Turkey over this centuries.

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Bear in mind that the Moors in Spain were there as a result of Spain being invaded in the 7th Century. So one might disagree with any form of ethnic cleansing, but then ultimately they can be regarded as distinctly uninvited in the first place. Particularly in a Catholic nation.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors

it makes the context different. Best I can tell, the Armenians were there long before the Ottoman Empire even existed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians_in_Turkey

 

I would agree the Ottomans seem to have had a relatively good record up to WW1, simply because without it the Empire could hardly have held together. But not perfect I think we would agree.

Stuart,

 

yeah, but most of those 'Moors' in Spain were probably converts who'd adopted the language, not immigrants. Same with Muslims in the Balkans, Turks in Turkey, Arabs in N. Africa, etc.

 

'Relatively good' in the context of the Ottoman empire means stressing the 'relatively', The Ottomans didn't do things others didn't also do, & did less than some, but they weren't nice.

 

BTW, few people pay any attention to the ethnic cleansing that went on in SE Europe as the Ottoman Empire declined & retreated. Everywhere up to Hungary was sprinkled with mosques, attended by local converts & immigrants as well as Turkish officials & garrisons. No trace left now across much of that territory. The numbers were quite small in Hungary (taken by the Habsburgs between 1683 & 1698), & in what is now Romania the Turks ruled indirectly, through local clients, so there was no Turkish settlement or conversion, but in Greece & Serbia a large proportion of the population was Muslim, some Turkish, some Albanian & others, but many Serbian & Greek-speaking, when they got their independence in the early 19th century. You wouldn't know it now. Those who survived the slaughter fled, & the traces they left were obliterated. The Greeks (perhaps also the Serbs: I've not read up on that) also massacred Jews. It was well documented at the time by philhellene Europeans who'd volunteered to help the Greeks, some of who left in disgust because of it. They described, for example, Greeks hunting Turkish children for sport. The Greeks made no secret of it at the time. Some of their leaders published entirely un-regretful accounts of massacres.

Edited by swerve
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I still think if one judges the Ottomans on the Armenian genocide alone, thats shocking enough.

 

I think Armenian genocide is not proper example to judge Ottoman Empire, since it happened when this empire was already falling apart to be replaced by newly invented national state and was, to some degree, one of signs of this falling apart. But there are lots of other dark pages over long Turkish history to point at – still, everybody got some….

 

By the way current events might be signs of national state Turkey to be replaced – by religious state?

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Islamic nationalists.....the AKP.

That is their plan obviously. And pandering to religious and patriotic feelings is always cheap way to sedate the population and detract from the shit Erdogan and his buddies are into, as there does not seem to have formed a wider opposition in spite of all the scandals that surfaced in the last few years.

 

I think what put the AKP on top in Turkish politics is the influx of rural population into the big cities. Turks living in Ankara or Istanbul have had a very secular western oriented culture until recently when the more religiously minded farmers moved in for jobs in the big city. What definitly helped Erdogan and his party is the economic development of the last decades, although they take the credit for what the governments before them started with modernising Turkish education etc.

Edited by Panzermann
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