Kiev Is Burning

[rohala]

Weellll . .. aksherly, there's this treaty from 1994 under which Ukraine agrees to renounce its nuclear weapons (& has kept its side of the bargain) & a few other countries agree to guarantee its independence & territorial integrity in exchange. One of 'em's the USA.

 

The other main one is Russia, but I think it's safe to assume that Russia's torn up that particular piece of paper. Bit like 1914, eh?

 

Where were you when Turkey invaded Cyprus in 1974?

 

All the other countries in the world, expecting NATO or the UN or USA to come to their rescue should their neighbour (Insert counties name here) desires more territory are watching...

In this Greece lost faith long ago.

[Red Ant]

I dont disagree, my illustration is unless the US president shows some resolve in Europe, why should anyone believe he is going to show any in Korea?

Let's not forget that the disparity of strength between Russia / Ukraine is nowhere near that as between North Korea / South Korea + allies. NK doesn't stand a snowball's chance in hell of defeating SK (even without support from any of SK's allies), whereas the Ukraine is basically screwed if the SHTF, so these two scenarios really have nothing in common.

[urbanoid]

Leave it up to the Russians to think about it? Well, that's what we have now!

 

Leave moral arguments to the Pope, my friends. As Stalin remarked, "how many divisions does he have?"

 

No spheres of influence? No Realpolitic? That does not explain notions of Pax Americana or the American Century. The failure to assess what the other guy is thinking frequently leads to surprises. It's not like domestic politics, where one can imagine, it is either A or B. Come to think of it, it does not work domestically anyway.

 

Who is rationalizing? Is somebody smoking? Or is this another lesson in rhetoric coming?

 

That would mean that all international law, all the procedures we've been working on for decades are simply a piece of paper. We didn't do all of this with no reason.

 

And pope had quite a lot of 'divisions' during the 1980s, sabotaging the Soviet Bloc on the 'moral' front, similar thing that Carter was doing when putting emphasis not only on military power, but also human rights issues.

 

Plus what American allies were forced into an alliance with Washington? What NATO country has been forced to join since its beginning? Pax Americana can (could?) exist because it's attractive, Warsaw Pact existed because enslaved nations were forced into it.

[T19]

 

Weellll . .. aksherly, there's this treaty from 1994 under which Ukraine agrees to renounce its nuclear weapons (& has kept its side of the bargain) & a few other countries agree to guarantee its independence & territorial integrity in exchange. One of 'em's the USA.

 

The other main one is Russia, but I think it's safe to assume that Russia's torn up that particular piece of paper. Bit like 1914, eh?

 

Where were you when Turkey invaded Cyprus in 1974?

 

All the other countries in the world, expecting NATO or the UN or USA to come to their rescue should their neighbour (Insert counties name here) desires more territory are watching...

In this Greece lost faith long ago.

 

I had not heard that Greece had been invaded, only that its govt could no longer afford its generous social programs. Is Greece even having its borders threatend

[Marcello]

No, this is not territorial expansion. We didnt even ask for permament bases in Iraq

 

 

Stuart, there is the small detail that the locals wanted the US out ASAP, and crucially some were willing to to drive that point home with high explosive.Perhaps the US could have put a gun to Maliki head and get him to sign whatever agreement it wanted but doing power projection from a place where a MRAP is the most advisable drive gets tiresome fast. So I would be careful before chalking it up to american high minded generosity.

Speaking of which:

but merely the latest act in a long line of aggressive acts back over a decade

 

 

Let's pretend that it does not apply to the Iraq war of 2003 for example? Not even a little bit?

 

 

he stomped on Georgia for little other than trying to reassert control over their own land

 

 

You mean the attempt to take over a piece of land populated by people who were not all that enthusiastic about falling under georgian rule and that started with that cute Grad barrage? Mind you I suspect certain territorial disputes can probably only be settled on the battlefield, so the georgians could well try as far as I am concerned. Do not expect pitying if you miscalculate such a move and get spanked however. Just as the current russian move might blow up in their face.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Marcello

[DKTanker]

 

Weellll . .. aksherly, there's this treaty from 1994 under which Ukraine agrees to renounce its nuclear weapons (& has kept its side of the bargain) & a few other countries agree to guarantee its independence & territorial integrity in exchange. One of 'em's the USA.

 

 

The US only guarantees that it will come to the aid of Ukraine if, and only if, it is attacked with nuclear weapons. You know, because the US talked them into giving them up to Russia.

[ink]

 

 

 

The EU is certainly not just a "TRADING" organisation. It is primarily a political organisation and the easy way to test this is to look at the "hoops" Swerve mentioned that accession states are required to jump through.

 

More pertinently, EU expansion tends (all new members since the fall of the Berlin Wall have also become members of NATO*) to go hand in hand with NATO expansion.

 

* EDIT: with the exception of Cyprus.

And also Austria, Finland & Sweden, all of which joined in 1995, & Malta, which joined in 2004.

 

Yes, quite right. My mistake.

 

I doubt, however, that Putin will be much reassured that Malta didn't join NATO, while he will be rather concerned that all the Eastern bloc joinees have.

[Marcello]

The US only guarantees that it will come to the aid of Ukraine if, and only if, it is attacked with nuclear weapons. You know, because the US talked them into giving them up to Russia.

 

 

 

If that is true I really have to wonder how anyone could manage to sign such a thing while keeping a straight face.

[ink]

Beaten by swerve http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Ukraine

 

Before voting on accession, Ukraine demanded from Russia, the USA, France and the United Kingdom a written statement that these powers undertook to extend the security guarantees to Ukraine. Instead security assurances to Ukraine (Ukraine published the documents as guarantees given to Ukraine),[6] given on 5 December 1994 at a formal ceremony in Budapest (known as the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances[7]), may be summarized as follows: Russia, the UK and the USA undertake to respect Ukraine's borders in accordance with the principles of the 1975 CSCE Final Act, to abstain from the use or threat of force against Ukraine, to support Ukraine where an attempt is made to place pressure on it by economic coercion, and to bring any incident of aggression by a nuclear power before the UN Security Council.

 

 

 

 

Well, the Russians did bring it before the Security Council... just sayin'.

[DKTanker]

 

 

If that is true I really have to wonder how anyone could manage to sign such a thing while keeping a straight face.

 

Ask the former US Sec'y of State and her husband. They did that and they managed to keep a straight face with a "RESET" button.

 

Adults in charge, indeed.

Edited March 3, 2014 by DKTanker

[BansheeOne]

Banshee, there is no difficulty over EU expansion. The problem has been extension of NATO in tandem with the EU.

 

You probably mean somebody else, as I have refrained from commenting on the nonsense re the EU on this thread since refuting the "deafening silence on Egypt" bit, which I just can't take serious. Though I find it hilarious that for once the American TN contingent gets to watch Blackhelicopterism from the Yuros.

[Colin Williams]

I see that Britain still has a light brigade in its force structure so Crimean War Part Deux is good to go! The USians can play the part of the Sardinian Army.

[Noble713]

Just for the sake of argument (and I know it wont happen) if the USMC were looking at a scenario like this, what would you need forcewise to make it work? Whats the smallest force they could commit to something like this with a carrier air wing backing them up?

 

 

Assuming 20,000 Russian troops, predominantly motorized infantry.....I'd say 1-2 Marine Expeditionary Brigades, probably just 1 if the battlespace is heavily prepped by the carrier air wing. I think two MEBs is the practical limit of the Navy's amphibious assault capacity — you'd have a LOT of big, valuable surface vessels crowding the Black Sea. I don't have a source I can link, just experience in Pacific Theater exercises of a similar nature.

 

 

 

KIEV, Ukraine — The former write-in candidate for Arizona governor traveled to Ukraine looking for love. He ended up hungry and sick in a homeless shelter — the victim of an Internet dating scam.

Social workers were stunned to find Cary Dolego, 53, sitting on a city street last Wednesday, behaving strangely and suffering from pneumonia.

 

 

 

Somebody didn't RTFM (which was, admittedly, published after Dolego's incident):

http://www.rooshv.com/bang-ukraine'>

 

Going hoe-slaying in Ukraine is a popular activity, although I hear it's not as easy or as fruitful as it used to be. They're pretty hip to the game that sexual tourists have been running.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Noble713

[bojan]

Stuart, why didn't you protest NATO attack on sovereign country, occupation of it's territory and giving that territory independence?

Why didn't you protest 2003. Albanian ethnic cleansing of remaining non-Albanians on Kosovo?

Why didn't you badmouth BBC when it talked about 100000 Albanians were being killed? Or about not reporting ongoing campaign of killing/scaring anyone who does not go with official Kosovo "Goverment"? Why did UK refuse to hand evidence of Albanian war crimes to Hague? You know, clean your own yard first?

 

Chicken came home to roost*, Russia is acting like NATO/EU did over Kosovo, NATO/EU is whining ineffectually just as Russia did in 1999, Ukraine painted itself into corner, just as Yugoslavia did in 1999. People of Ukraine will suffer, just as we did here in '99. Russia will humiliate NATO, just as NATO did to Russia in 1999. I just hope there wont be some moron like Clark and "Take that airfield and damn the WW3" or that there will be at least some sane person to prevent it.

 

And you know what - It is mostly our blame for painting our self in corner in 1999 (through I can not say that EU and US did not help, mostly by supplying a paint**), just as it was mostly Ukraine to blame for painting it'self to corner now (and Russians certainly helped). They had "democratic" (remember previous orange revolution) government, it ended in tears as it turned out they are same kleptocrats as previous gang was.

 

*I can not say I am glad for that (far from it), but I will also say "Told you so".

 

** By refusing to support Serbian opposition vs Milosevic in 1996/97 when there was a real chance of him loosing power. Madeleine Albright said that "Milosevc is a guarantee of peace in Balkans". Which led his megalomania to even greater risks as he considered to have US backing.

Edited March 3, 2014 by bojan

[Marek Tucan]

Yes, quite right. My mistake.

 

I doubt, however, that Putin will be much reassured that Malta didn't join NATO, while he will be rather concerned that all the Eastern bloc joinees have.

Pity no Russian leader ever stops to think about "Why do our ex puppets rush so fast into the imperialist fascist embrace" and "How should I act to make myself more attractive".

[AETiglathPZ]

 

 

crazyinsane, unless you have seen moving imaginery, I'd say that is Photoshop.

I have Skyped with her. The girl is real.

 

 

I have no doubts about her face being real. The rest, however...

 

"Scouts OUT!!!"

 

When is the UKKi wife courting I&I?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wW7c58nMI4

Not to be nosy..OK, I'm nosy. Did you meet her on Mamba.ru?

Edited March 3, 2014 by AETiglathPZ

[rmgill]

I had not heard that Greece had been invaded, only that its govt could no longer afford its generous social programs. Is Greece even having its borders threatend

 

 

 

I'm sure Greece was dismayed by the failure of allies to defend it that it reconstituted a substantial and powerful military.

Edited March 3, 2014 by rmgill

[ink]

 

Yes, quite right. My mistake.

 

I doubt, however, that Putin will be much reassured that Malta didn't join NATO, while he will be rather concerned that all the Eastern bloc joinees have.

Pity no Russian leader ever stops to think about "Why do our ex puppets rush so fast into the imperialist fascist embrace" and "How should I act to make myself more attractive".

 

 

Indeed!

[X-Files]

 

KIEV, Ukraine — The former write-in candidate for Arizona governor traveled to Ukraine looking for love. He ended up hungry and sick in a homeless shelter — the victim of an Internet dating scam.

Social workers were stunned to find Cary Dolego, 53, sitting on a city street last Wednesday, behaving strangely and suffering from pneumonia.

 

 

 

Somebody didn't RTFM (which was, admittedly, published after Dolego's incident):

 

Going hoe-slaying in Ukraine is a popular activity, although I hear it's not as easy or as fruitful as it used to be. They're pretty hip to the game that sexual tourists have been running.

 

 

Is no problem. Party like is 1999!

The HIV/AIDS epidemic in Ukraine is one of the fastest growing in the world

 

 

In this Greece lost faith long ago.

 

I had not heard that Greece had been invaded, only that its govt could no longer afford its generous social programs. Is Greece even having its borders threatend

 

 

 

(It's 2x funny because VW is a German firm and the Germans told Greece "No, you can't haz more handouts")

Edited March 3, 2014 by X-Files

[BansheeOne]

Chicken came home to roost*, Russia is acting like NATO/EU did over Kosovo, NATO/EU is whining ineffectually just as Russia did in 1999, Ukraine painted itself into corner, just as Yugoslavia did in 1999.

 

Actually Russia is acting like Albania invaded Yugoslavia with NATO backing to annex Kosovo in 1989, after Milosevic's moves against regional autonomy and before ten years of civil war with assorted atrocities. Which might be construed to justify the current intervention as preventing similar bloodshed - it's certainly what the Russians are claiming - and doesn't make real events any better-advised, but it's nowhere near the same thing.

[X-Files]

I'll just leave this here...

 

While the troop withdrawal is, strategically speaking, most relevant to NATO, which has been struggling for a while, NATO's major European members are also the leaders of the European Union, and it's here that some of the experts see opportunity for expansion. In French paper Le Monde's multi-part expert weigh-in, international relations professor and Higher Institute of Armament and Defense (ISAD) director Jean-Jacques Roche pointed out that the U.S. withdrawal from Europe will "enhance the international visibility of the European Union," and turn it into "an essential interface between member states and NATO." It will be good, he further argued, for member states who first joined NATO, then the EU, to realize that the EU is their "most durable insurance policy."

Of course, for all these benefits to accrue to the EU as the U.S. scales down its European presence, the EU itself and its member states will have to step up -- and there's strong media awareness of this fact, not least because, whether politely or not, it's a topic the U.S. has been lecturing about for some time. Back in June, U.S. defense secretary Robert Gates blamed NATO's "dim if not dismal future" on the lackluster participation of its member states, complaining that some within the alliance were "apparently willing and eager for American taxpayers to assume the growing security burden left by reductions in European defense budgets."

With headlines like "Europeans have to take greater care of their own safety" coming out of Germany now, it seems the troop reduction has brought about the desired effect. Policymakers also appear to be keenly aware of the challenges ahead, German ministers of foreign affairs Guido Westerwelle and Thomas de Maizière warning last week against Germany overestimating its own military might. As Westerwelle talked about the rise of new power centers, saying that "without more integration, we will be further marginalized," de Maizière pointed to the reality of Germany's limited military, arguing for more careful prioritization and leaving issues like Somalia to others.

 

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/01/why-europe-should-be-glad-its-us-troops-are-leaving/251768/

[DKTanker]

 

** By refusing to support Serbian opposition vs Milosevic in 1996/97 when there was a real chance of him loosing power. Madeleine Albright said that "Milosevc is a guarantee of peace in Balkans". Which led his megalomania to even greater risks as he considered to have US backing.

Not saying she didn't say it, she is after all a ding bat par excellence, but I can't find the context for that quote.

[X-Files]

Russian naval infantry soldiers guard the Orsk Russian landing ship anchored in the Ukraine's Black Sea port of Sevastopol on March 2, 2014.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alligator-class_landing_ship

 

 

The Russian naval landing vessel "Georgiy Pobedonosets" enters one of the bays of Sevastopol, Sunday, March 2, 2014.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ropucha-class_landing_ship

[bojan]

 

Not saying she didn't say it, she is after all a ding bat par excellence, but I can't find the context for that quote.

 

I will try to find it, I remember it quite well as it was broadcaster live on demonstrations 1996/97 and whole crowd went silent...

Edited March 3, 2014 by bojan

[Oddball31]

 

 

** By refusing to support Serbian opposition vs Milosevic in 1996/97 when there was a real chance of him loosing power. Madeleine Albright said that "Milosevc is a guarantee of peace in Balkans". Which led his megalomania to even greater risks as he considered to have US backing.

Not saying she didn't say it, she is after all a ding bat par excellence, but I can't find the context for that quote.

 

 

It has something to do with Dayton accords, and the way how Milosevic abandoned the Bosnian Serbs.