Iron Swords vs. Al-Aqsa Deluge - Israel/Palestinians (again)

[seahawk]

1 hour ago, bojan said:

Only times they will agree about something is when they get opportunity to chop infidel heads. See Bosnia as example, Iran happily cooperated with Turkey, Pakistan, Saudis and Qatar (all with US blessing) in arming Bosnia Muslims. Saudi and Qatari money, Turkey, Pakistan and Iran providing weapons.

One could say that Israel meets the requirement.

[crazyinsane105]

2 hours ago, bojan said:

Only times they will agree about something is when they get opportunity to chop infidel heads. See Bosnia as example, Iran happily cooperated with Turkey, Pakistan, Saudis and Qatar (all with US blessing) in arming Bosnia Muslims. Saudi and Qatari money, Turkey, Pakistan and Iran providing weapons.

Not to mention that they did this because end of the day, wasn’t much Serbia could do against them, and that brings upon another point…
 

With major tech innovations in upcoming decades, we need to keep an open mind that nuclear deterrence may very well no longer be a thing as anti missile defense systems become very effective. And nuclear deterrence is quite frankly the only thing keeping most Muslim countries from sending arms to Palestinians on such a scale that it will threaten Israeli existence. 
 

Of course, the erosion of effective nuke deterrence will probably cause significant conflicts elsewhere but that’s another topic..

[crazyinsane105]

1 hour ago, seahawk said:

One could say that Israel meets the requirement.

See my comment above 

[glenn239]

11 hours ago, rmgill said:

Israel is fighting a foe that if given enough time would destroy Israel. Hamas wants total war. 

Hamas is too weak to threaten the Israeli state.  For there to be a threat to Israel, there would have to be a regional consensus develop that Israel was a regional problem that required a regional coalition to impose a Two State solution  upon it.

Put that way, is the way this war is being conducted making such a regional coalition more likely or less likely?

Quote

Don’t you want them to have it? Or do you think 10/7 should go unanswered and allowed to happen again? 

You are talking to the one and only poster on Tanknet that identified Hamas as a threat that had to be removed from Gaza, which in turn needed to be occupied by an international force.  At the time about five years ago I don't recall you were for that proposal and now 18,000 people on both sides are dead.   The war allows for a solution to the Gaza crisis, but it strikes me that Israel can use far more American assistance to pull it off in a way that will be positive and lasting.

Edited December 9, 2023 by glenn239

[rmgill]

7 hours ago, glenn239 said:

Hamas is too weak to threaten the Israeli state. 
 

Strong enough to murder Israeli citizens by the hundreds. 
 

Sure the state will continue. But the citizens are left what? The state exists for the citizens. 

7 hours ago, glenn239 said:

Put that way, is the way this war is being conducted making such a regional coalition more likely or less likely?

Sure, if they want to side with Iran. 

7 hours ago, glenn239 said:

You are talking to the one and only poster on Tanknet that identified Hamas as a threat that had to be removed from Gaza, which in turn needed to be occupied by an international force.  At the time about five years ago I don't recall you were for that proposal and now 18,000 people on both sides are dead. 
 

What international force will go there? 
 

Ideas have to be realistic . 

 

[crazyinsane105]

Casualty numbers aren’t adding up. Up to 5,000 wounded, with 2,000 disabled…but deaths are extremely low in comparison…

[Ssnake]

It's better, but still roughly in line with modern conflicts outside Russia/Ukraine. The KIA/WIA ratio has been steadily declining since the Napoleonic era, down to about .2 in Afghanistan. A .1 ratio appears feasible when you account for

a. Israel's traditional high emphasis on force protection

b. proximity of the battlezone to hospitals

c. the high reputation of Israeli clinics in general

[Stuart Galbraith]

Hamas seems to be starting to collapse.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/videos/toi-original/shocking-footage-reveals-collapse-of-hamas-rule-as-gunmen-surrender-to-idf/videoshow/105873200.cms

[BansheeOne]

That can't be, because Scott "US Nazi Biolabs in Ukraine" Ritter told me Hamas is winning only last week!

Quote

Scott Ritter: Hamas Winning Battle for Gaza

11:29 GMT 23.11.2023 (Updated: 09:24 GMT 05.12.2023)

The recently announced ceasefire is a blessing for Palestinians and Israelis alike—a chance for prisoners to be exchanged, humanitarian aid to be distributed to those in need, and for emotions on both sides of the conflict to cool down.

While the ceasefire, negotiated between Israel and Hamas by Qatar, was mutually agreed between the two parties, let no one be fooled into thinking this was anything less than a victory for Hamas. Israel had taken a very aggressive position that, given its stated objective of destroying Hamas as an organization, it would not agree to a ceasefire under any conditions.

Hamas, on the other hand, had made one of its primary objectives in initiating the current round of fighting with Israel the release of Palestinian prisoners, and in particular women and children, held by Israel. Seen in this light, the ceasefire represents an important victory for Hamas, and a humiliating defeat for Israel.

One of the reasons Israel eschewed a ceasefire was that it was confident that the offensive operation it had launched into northern Gaza was going to neutralize Hamas as a military threat, and that any ceasefire, regardless of the humanitarian justification, would only buy time for a defeated Hamas enemy to rest, refit, and regroup. That Israel signed on to a ceasefire is the surest sign yet that all is not well with the Israeli offensive against Hamas.

This outcome should not have come as a surprise to anyone. When Hamas launched its October 7 attack on Israel, it initiated a plan years in the making. The meticulous attention to detail that was evident in the Hamas operation underscored the reality that Hamas had been studying the Israeli intelligence and military forces arrayed against it, uncovering weaknesses that were subsequently exploited. The Hamas action represented more than sound tactical and operational planning and execution—it was a masterpiece in strategic conceptualization as well.

[...]

The October 7 attack was designed to humiliate Israel to the point of irrationality, to ensure that any Israeli response would be governed by the emotional need for revenge, as opposed to a rational response designed to nullify the Hamas objectives. Here, Hamas was guided by the established Israeli doctrine of collective punishment (known as the Dahiya Doctrine, named after the West Beirut suburb that was heavily bombed by Israel in 2006 as a way of punishing the Lebanese people for Israel’s failure to defeat Hezbollah in combat.) By inflicting a humiliating defeat on Israel which shattered both the myth of Israeli invincibility (regarding the Israel Defense Forces) and infallibility (regarding Israeli intelligence), and by taking hundreds of Israelis hostage before withdrawing to its underground lair beneath Gaza, Hamas baited a trap for Israel which the government of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu predictably rushed into.

Hamas has prepared a network of tunnels underneath the Gaza Strip that, in total, stretch for over 500 kilometers. Nicknamed the “Gaza Metro,” these tunnels consist of interconnected deep underground bunkers used for command and control, logistical support, medical treatment, and billeting, along with other tunnel networks dedicated for both defensive and offensive operations. The tunnels are buried deep enough to avoid destruction by most bombs in Israel’s possession and have been provisioned to withstand a siege of up to three months (90 days) in duration.

Hamas knows that it cannot engage Israel in a classic force-on-force encounter. Instead, the goal was to lure Israeli forces into Gaza, and then subject these forces to an endless series of hit-and-run attacks by small teams of Hamas fighters who would emerge from their underground lairs, attack a vulnerable Israeli force, and then disappear back underground. In short, to subject the Israeli military to what is the equivalent of a death by a thousand cuts.

And it worked. While Israeli forces have been able to penetrate into the less urbanized areas of the northern Gaza strip, taking advantage of the mobility and firepower of its armored troops, the progress is illusory, as Hamas forces harry the Israelis continuously, using deadly tandem-warhead rockets to disable or destroy Israeli vehicles, killing scores of Israeli soldiers and wounding hundreds more. While Israel has been reticent in releasing the figures of armored vehicles lost in this fashion, Hamas claims the number is in the hundreds. Hamas' claims are bolstered by the fact that Israel has halted the sale of older Merkava 3 tanks, and instead has organized their inventory of these vehicles into new reserve armor battalions to make up for the heavy losses being sustained in both Gaza and along the northern border with Lebanon, where Hezbollah forces are engaged in a deadly war of attrition with Israel in operations designed to support Hamas in Gaza.

[...]

But Hamas is doing more than surviving — it is winning. Having fought the Israel Defense Forces to a standstill on the battlefield, Hamas has seen every one of its strategic objectives in this conflict reach fruition. The world is actively articulating the absolute necessity of a two-state solution as a prerequisite for a lasting peace in the region. Palestinians held prisoner by Israel are being exchanged for the Israelis Hamas took hostage. And the Islamic world is united in condemning Israel’s desecration of the Al Aqsa Mosque.

None of these issues were on the table on October 6. That they are being addressed now is testament to the success Hamas enjoyed on October 7, and in the days and weeks that followed, as Israeli forces were defeated by a combination of Hamas' tenacity and their own predilection for indiscriminate violence against civilians. Far from being eliminated as a military and political force, Hamas has emerged as perhaps the most relevant voice and authority when it comes to defending the interests of the Palestinian people.

https://sputnikglobe.com/20231123/scott-ritter-hamas-winning-battle-for-gaza-1115160045.html

[Stuart Galbraith]

Well they are probably winning in the same sense that some guys in the apalacians are still convinced the Commies are still coming.

Scott Ritter, ah, truly the UN's answer to Glenn.

 

 

[Rick]

On 12/7/2023 at 2:27 PM, EchoFiveMike said:

You're making appeals to some authority that doesn't exist.  Unacceptable to who?  The strong do as they will, the weak do as they must.  This is the result of letting women(and weak men) have political power, everything becomes some fucking appeal to have "someone" "do something."  S/F....Ken M

More truth in the third sentence than may be apparent. Women are more easily deceived than men, are more prone to want "fairness" regardless of the means used to achieve this ambiguous goal. The truth in this vulnerability is the number of single mothers and the support of liberalism in the political world ; especially among the young, college-indoctrinated (one cannot say educated) women. Virtually every news video I have seen shows these type of women not logically and intelligently questioning  liberalism, but emotionally screaming and festering for virtually every liberal causes to be the rule over everyone.
Academia, the press, and politics ignore that obvious fact that men and women were designed and made to be complimentary, not adversarial. As this relates to politics, ie the choice of liberals is to have power over others by enforcing lies in the name of fairness. It is more prone for men to logically think through this liberal fallacy as men are suited leadership and women as supporters of said leadership. You'll find more married men and women support conservative truths than liberal lies. 
This is why liberalism is so intent on destroying the family. A man and a woman becoming husband and wife, then a mother and father is the bedrock of any society. The man's responsibility to care for and lead his family with the support of his wife is the antithesis of liberalism. In the U.S. this antithesis is pictured by young, college-indoctrinated women. 

[Strannik]

Movie time

 

 

[seahawk]

21 minutes ago, Rick said:

More truth in the third sentence than may be apparent. Women are more easily deceived than men, are more prone to want "fairness" regardless of the means used to achieve this ambiguous goal. The truth in this vulnerability is the number of single mothers and the support of liberalism in the political world ; especially among the young, college-indoctrinated (one cannot say educated) women. Virtually every news video I have seen shows these type of women not logically and intelligently questioning  liberalism, but emotionally screaming and festering for virtually every liberal causes to be the rule over everyone.
Academia, the press, and politics ignore that obvious fact that men and women were designed and made to be complimentary, not adversarial. As this relates to politics, ie the choice of liberals is to have power over others by enforcing lies in the name of fairness. It is more prone for men to logically think through this liberal fallacy as men are suited leadership and women as supporters of said leadership. You'll find more married men and women support conservative truths than liberal lies. 
This is why liberalism is so intent on destroying the family. A man and a woman becoming husband and wife, then a mother and father is the bedrock of any society. The man's responsibility to care for and lead his family with the support of his wife is the antithesis of liberalism. In the U.S. this antithesis is pictured by young, college-indoctrinated women. 

The word of the bible is the bedrock of society.

[Mistral]

13 minutes ago, seahawk said:

The word of the bible is the bedrock of society.

Infidels must be purged!!!

[Mighty_Zuk]

7 hours ago, crazyinsane105 said:

Casualty numbers aren’t adding up. Up to 5,000 wounded, with 2,000 disabled…but deaths are extremely low in comparison…

In addition to what Solid Snake said:

Body armor for everyone.

Proximity of every combat force to casevac and medevac.

Technologies and methodologies that allow precise assaults and lower the rate of casualties from direct, short range engagements.

5 hours ago, Ssnake said:

It's better, but still roughly in line with modern conflicts outside Russia/Ukraine. The KIA/WIA ratio has been steadily declining since the Napoleonic era, down to about .2 in Afghanistan. A .1 ratio appears feasible when you account for

a. Israel's traditional high emphasis on force protection

b. proximity of the battlezone to hospitals

c. the high reputation of Israeli clinics in general

Agree on points 2 and 3, disagre on 1. Force protection is unfortunately not given sufficient emphasis.

4 hours ago, BansheeOne said:

That can't be, because Scott "US Nazi Biolabs in Ukraine" Ritter told me Hamas is winning only last week!

https://sputnikglobe.com/20231123/scott-ritter-hamas-winning-battle-for-gaza-1115160045.html

I can't believe they wasted the sex tunnel meme on Ukraine when Gaza is such an obvious choice.

[Ssnake]

29 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

disagre on 1. Force protection is unfortunately not given sufficient emphasis

It's still reflected in the doctrinal emphasis on heavy armor, especially for troop transporters. You have Achzarit and Namers, and the people inside wear body armor. That alone will make a difference not only in the total number of casualties when compared to, say, M113s as troop trasnports in urban combat (...), but also in the severity of wounds when they do occur.

[Ssnake]

6 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Hamas seems to be starting to collapse.

 

Times of India:

The ongoing conflict witnesses an increasing number of Hamas operatives surrendering, with members expressing dissatisfaction with leadership.

I bet these fuckers were quite satisfied with their leadership until about mid November.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Yes, I quite agree.

[Marsh]

2 hours ago, Strannik said:

Movie time

 

 

Actually even BBC Verify disagrees with you. It's the same bloke being used to move a number of rifles. I can't get the direct link to work, but have cut and paste from the BBC web site.

Link here, if it works for you

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67672759?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=6575d20f6868a4009ac444b8%26Purported surrender footage filmed in one take - but some questions remain%262023-12-10T15%3A16%3A06.344Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:02578db2-4634-4b5a-a3d3-bde665f9d686&pinned_post_asset_id=6575d20f6868a4009ac444b8&pinned_post_type=share

Benedict Garman

Posted at 15:1615:16

Purported surrender footage filmed in one take - but some questions remain

BBCCopyright: BBC

There's been speculation about the authenticity of footage filmed by Israeli troops in northern Gaza, after two separate clips emerged in which the same man is seen surrendering a gun - but in each video, he holds it in a different hand. We earlier reported suggestions that separate "takes" of the same incident had been produced.

But analysis by BBC Verify - of both videos and additional still images of the same scene - suggests these are sequential events, not separate takes, and the same man is going to and fro bringing different guns to the pavement with their detached magazines (ammunition).

One video - which we know was shot first because of the position of the sun - shows the man placing a gun from his right hand on top of another on the pavement. In the next video, with the sun lower, the man places a different gun on top of those from his left hand. Still images corroborate and bookend this sequence, with one showing the very first gun being placed, and another showing the resulting three guns and magazines on the pavement.

There are still some questions raised by the footage - notably, the man is at gunpoint following directions, and we can't know whether he was surrendering the weapons or simply following instructions to move them.

The Israeli military did not directly respond when we asked it.

[Stuart Galbraith]

One has to ask how they could have staged it? Did they got 100 IDF guys to get their kit off and pretend to be Hamas? It seems hardly likely.

The worst one can accuse them of is that they staged the circumstances of a real surrender to get a nice shot, which everyone in WW2 did all that time.

[Markus Becker]

9 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Hamas seems to be starting to collapse.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/videos/toi-original/shocking-footage-reveals-collapse-of-hamas-rule-as-gunmen-surrender-to-idf/videoshow/105873200.cms

They clearly lost any interest in 72 virgins. I blame online porn. Give it credit! 

[Stuart Galbraith]

19 minutes ago, Markus Becker said:

They clearly lost any interest in 72 virgins. I blame online porn. Give it credit! 

'All we are sayin', is give Pornhub a chance.....,'

 

 

[Dark_Falcon]

I credit thermobaric weapons.  The prospect of dying in agony in your bunker is often enough to get defenders to swallow their pride.

[crazyinsane105]

 

First footage of drone dropped munition on a vehicle since after the Oct 7 attack 

 

Edited December 10, 2023 by crazyinsane105

[Stuart Galbraith]

1 hour ago, Dark_Falcon said:

I credit thermobaric weapons.  The prospect of dying in agony in your bunker is often enough to get defenders to swallow their pride.

Bring back the Crocodile....