Because Trump 2.0

[Josh]

1 hour ago, rmgill said:

A civil suit judge can declare that an entire corporate stack must be dissolved in a summary judgement. How does that work? 

Due process? Property rights?

 

I'm now sure how this is legal either. Asking a lawyer friend.

[17thfabn]

5 hours ago, Josh said:

Wow...Trump Organization found to use fraudulent valuations. I mean, I would have assumed that a decade ago long before he had political aspirations, but I never thought anyone would actually call him out on it. I had not even heard of this case before:

It is an old case. What I don't understand is how a bank lent money based on valuations they didn't do themselves. 

If I go to the bank to get a loan on my house they don't let me set the value.

When the state and county tax my property they don't let me set the value of my property.

[Josh]

36 minutes ago, 17thfabn said:

It is an old case. What I don't understand is how a bank lent money based on valuations they didn't do themselves. 

If I go to the bank to get a loan on my house they don't let me set the value.

When the state and county tax my property they don't let me set the value of my property.

I do not understand that either. At a minimum I would assume the bank does some kind of due diligence of checking the value of the collateral. Just getting Trumps tax filings would have show the glaring differences between what he valued properties at to the IRS versus banks. I couldn’t even rent my last apartment without a copy of my tax returns; I don’t know how the rich get to invent their own value.

 

This might have to do with other shady dealings Trump had with specific individuals at Deutsch Bank. They were about the last western source of loans Trump could use until recently; he and his organization were black listed by most US banks. Trump has done an amazing job white washing his unsuccessful business career. If it weren’t for The Apprentice he would likely have gone broke.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Josh

[Josh]

4 hours ago, rmgill said:

A civil suit judge can declare that an entire corporate stack must be dissolved in a summary judgement. How does that work? 

Due process? Property rights?

 

My brother (lawyer) sent me this link as explanation:

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summary_judgment

 

ETA: 

This isn’t a process I was familiar with. In effect the judge is saying there is no possibility of debating the facts of the case, because the documents in evidence specifically overstated the size of Trumps apartment by a factor of 3 and Maralago value by an order of magnitude.

My take away is that this will be appealed and likely come before a jury in that process, though given the evidence mentioned in the opinion, the case is a slam dunk. These don’t seem to be mild valuation discrepancies but rather obvious fake numbers, even in clearly quantifiable values like square footage of a property.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Josh

[rmgill]

1 hour ago, Josh said:

I do not understand that either. At a minimum I would assume the bank does some kind of due diligence of checking the value of the collateral. Just getting Trumps tax filings would have show the glaring differences between what he valued properties at to the IRS versus banks. I couldn’t even rent my last apartment without a copy of my tax returns; I don’t know how the rich get to invent their own value.

Um, tax valuation and market valuation aren’t the same either. 
 

And IRS taxes don’t tax inherent value of things you hold, just capitol gains when you dispose of a property. 
 

How much do you understand about US law? 

[rmgill]

1 hour ago, Josh said:

My brother (lawyer) sent me this link as explanation:

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summary_judgment

 

ETA: 

This isn’t a process I was familiar with. In effect the judge is saying there is no possibility of debating the facts of the case, because the documents in evidence specifically overstated the size of Trumps apartment by a factor of 3 and Maralago value by an order of magnitude.

The takeaway though is that there have to be findings and I am not sure that happened here. 

 

Its unclear to me how a civil court could declare a series of business entities dissolved which would likely require government findings and proceedings. This would require administrative hearings. 
 

Again, due process asserts. 
 

My gut is that the judge overreached beyond her grasp. 

Edited September 27, 2023 by rmgill

[Josh]

12 minutes ago, rmgill said:

Um, tax valuation and market valuation aren’t the same either. 
 

And IRS taxes don’t tax inherent value of things you hold, just capitol gains when you dispose of a property. 
 

How much do you understand about US law? 

Very little, admittedly. But the facts of the case listed in the judges opinion (properties listed at multiples of their value and physical size) never the less seem heavily against Trump even if the summary judgment and penalty is heavy handed. ETA: that is, the charge of fraud seems like it could be easily proven to a jury. The penalties I find perplexing and have asked my brother for an explanation.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Josh

[Josh]

9 minutes ago, rmgill said:

The takeaway though is that there have to be findings and I am not sure that happened here. 

 

Its unclear to me how a civil court could declare a series of business entities dissolved which would likely require government findings and proceedings. This would require administrative hearings. 
 

Again, due process asserts. 
 

My gut is that the judge overreached beyond her grasp. 

Honestly my gut too; while the fraud seems quite clear I don’t see how a civil case could result in such a penalty.

[rmgill]

Expect to see legal analysis of her decision more or less ripping it to pieces. 

[DKTanker]

13 hours ago, Josh said:

Wow...Trump Organization found to use fraudulent valuations. I mean, I would have assumed that a decade ago long before he had political aspirations, but I never thought anyone would actually call him out on it. I had not even heard of this case before:

https://www.reuters.com/legal/judge-finds-trump-liable-fraud-new-york-civil-case-2023-09-26/

 

That is so much bullshit.  Every year I challenge the property appraisal on my house, stating it isn't worth what the assessor deems it to be.  Sometimes I win the challenge, most times I don't.  When I refinanced my house a few years ago I made sure to mention that I had upgraded several areas thus increasing the property's value.  

Am I guilty of fraud if the tax assessor and the finance company take my word for the valuation of my property instead of them doing their own due diligence?

[DKTanker]

So Trump was in Michigan this evening advocating the necessity of workers receiving a "living" wage.  Might one of you Trump advocates clue us into what exactly defines a "living" wage?

[Detonable]

  Usually it's used by Democrats/leftists to insist that all workers make enough money to raise a family. Why a teenager serving French fries at McDonalds shoule be supporting a family is never explained.

[Stuart Galbraith]

So how does the dissonance between wanting a living wage for workers, and not wanting American industry go abroad work?

My father was a fabricator welder. I asked him if I should learn it. He talked me out of it, saying it never paid. Later in life I was earning more money per hour folding cardboard boxes than he was, a highly skilled labourer.

Either you pay skilled people the wages that encourage them to keep coming, or they wont learn the skills for the industry you wish to retain. Its not that hard to understand.

[Josh]

12 hours ago, rmgill said:

Expect to see legal analysis of her decision more or less ripping it to pieces. 

My brother says that the ruling wasn’t too shocking but that the imposed penalties were unprecedented, for what it’s worth.

[Josh]

6 hours ago, DKTanker said:

That is so much bullshit.  Every year I challenge the property appraisal on my house, stating it isn't worth what the assessor deems it to be.  Sometimes I win the challenge, most times I don't.  When I refinanced my house a few years ago I made sure to mention that I had upgraded several areas thus increasing the property's value.  

Am I guilty of fraud if the tax assessor and the finance company take my word for the valuation of my property instead of them doing their own due diligence?

The Trump valuations seemed to vary by orders of magnitude, not mere double digit percentage points. But I’m not a legal expert as to what would qualify as a completely fraudulent value. Certainly incorrectly stating the dimensions of a property seems like a rather huge oversight.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Particularly as he was actually living in it at the time....

[DKTanker]

1 hour ago, Josh said:

The Trump valuations seemed to vary by orders of magnitude, not mere double digit percentage points. But I’m not a legal expert as to what would qualify as a completely fraudulent value. Certainly incorrectly stating the dimensions of a property seems like a rather huge oversight.

So fucking what?  If the tax assessor is just going to take his, or his company's word on the value of the property, that's incompetence on the part of the state.  If he or his company receives loans based upon an inflated value of the property, that's incompetence on the part of the investing company. 

What you and the judge are explicitly saying is that incompetence is a virtue which should be protected from those that might take advantage of it. 

Edited September 28, 2023 by DKTanker

[DKTanker]

4 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

So how does the dissonance between wanting a living wage for workers, and not wanting American industry go abroad work?

Before we go any further with this discussion, let's define terms.  Shall we?  Let's start with "Living wage."  What is a "living wage?"  

[Ivanhoe]

https://nypost.com/2023/09/27/donald-trumps-mar-a-lago-worth-at-least-300m-sources/

Quote

 

In his verdict, Manhattan Supreme Court Justice Arthur Engoron delivered a bombshell ruling that the former president committed fraud by inflating the value of his wealth, with details including the monetary value associated with Mar-a-Lago in Palm Beach.

This decision, which came down without a jury, has sent shockwaves through political — and real estate — circles, especially that $18 million base value for the property.

One prominent Palm Beach real estate broker, speaking on the condition of anonymity, told The Post, “It’s utterly delusional to think that property is only worth $18 million.”

The insider added, “If that property were on the market today, I would list it at around $300 million, minimum … at least. He also has the separate golf course minutes away.”

 

.

Quote

 

To put it in perspective, a 2-acre wooded lot at 1980 S. Ocean Blvd., just 5 minutes from Mar-a-Lago, is currently listed for $150 million. Mar-a-Lago, situated at 1100 S. Ocean Blvd., dwarfs this lot tenfold and operates as a commercial business with around 500 members as part of the golf club.

Also nearby: a 2.3-acre plot of land at 1063/1071 N. Ocean Blvd., on the market for a sky-high $200 million.

Trump’s Mar-a-Lago estate boasts a sprawling 20 acres.

Forbes had appraised the property, which is made up of 128 rooms, at approximately $160 million in 2018 following extensive renovations and its exclusive Palm Beach location on Billionaires’ Row. The property includes a 20,000-square-foot ballroom, five clay tennis courts and a sprawling waterfront pool.

 

Its going to turn out that the judge isn't just suffering from TDS, but from some other psychological issue. 

 

[Josh]

14 minutes ago, DKTanker said:

So fucking what?  If the tax assessor is just going to take his, or his company's word on the value of the property, that's incompetence on the part of the state.  If he or his company receives loans based upon an inflated value of the property, that's incompetence on the part of the investing company. 

What you and the judge are explicitly saying is that incompetence is a virtue which should be protected from those that might take advantage of it. 

Again, I'm not a legal expert, but I expect there is some kind of regulations regarding simply making up values for your properties that have zero basis in fact.

[Ivanhoe]

https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2023/09/another_trump_indictment_and_what_a_coincidence_some_very_damning_news_about_joe_bidens_corruption.html

Quote

 

Well, what a coincidence. The fact that the bad news for Trump tightly followed the bad news for Biden, and swamped the news cycle was so obvious, even the press noticed, or at least, those with brains and a keen sense of the political landscape:

Now we know why the NY judge decided to move on trump today. It's all so obvious. And disgusting https://t.co/KwusGJoDNJ

— Maria Bartiromo (@MariaBartiromo) September 27, 2023

 

 

[Markus Becker]

3 hours ago, Ivanhoe said:

https://nypost.com/2023/09/27/donald-trumps-mar-a-lago-worth-at-least-300m-sources/

.

Its going to turn out that the judge isn't just suffering from TDS, but from some other psychological issue. 

 

They have been looking for a crime, any crime to pin on him since he won in 2016. ... And they find something as simple as passing 1,000 square feet for 2,8000 only now. After seven years? 

Amazing display of ineptitude at the very least. 

[Tim Sielbeck]

14 minutes ago, Markus Becker said:

They have been looking for a crime, any crime to pin on him since he won in 2016. ... And they find something as simple as passing 1,000 square feet for 2,8000 only now. After seven years? 

Amazing display of ineptitude at the very least. 

 

[Skywalkre]

4 hours ago, Markus Becker said:

They have been looking for a crime, any crime to pin on him since he won in 2016. ... And they find something as simple as passing 1,000 square feet for 2,8000 only now. After seven years? 

Amazing display of ineptitude at the very least. 

Eh... Trump or his businesses have been the defendant in over 1900 cases over three decades and lost or settled just under 230 of those (per this site dated last year).  He and his entities were no stranger to the courtroom (and losing in it) before this.

[Skywalkre]

8 hours ago, Josh said:

Again, I'm not a legal expert, but I expect there is some kind of regulations regarding simply making up values for your properties that have zero basis in fact.

This is just a friendly reminder to everyone that none of us here on TN are lawyers (especially lawyers in this respective field... I have good friends who are lawyers and when I ask them about various legal issues outside their focus the first thing they'll always preface what they're about to say is "this isn't my field of expertise so take it with a grain of salt...").  Just because we may not understand something doesn't mean it's not legal and protesting it is simply highlighting our own lack of knowledge in the respective field.  I've searched and found nothing to indicate the ruling in NY was outrageous and some articles are stating that it's not a given yet Trump will have to sell any of these entities but that it simply remains a possibility.

Edited September 28, 2023 by Skywalkre