Polish Armoured Vehicles And Their Modernizations.

[urbanoid]

Just now, Markus Becker said:

"Us" is Poland or CR/SR I presume. 

With regard to the older Soviet systems it is my impression that the newer missiles are the ones with a longer range and GPS/GLONASS. 

Maybe it's not a simple modification and the Ukraine never got to make many before February? 

Several 'new NATO' countries, including those you mentioned.

'Newer missiles' for Soviet systems seem to be quite rare for both sides. Mostly it's about 'shooting the hectares'.

Vilkha is quite advanced, I don't think they produced more than a few of them and missile production surely isn't substantial, probably more of a 'manufacture' than a proper mass production, which is Ukraine's defense industry's problem in general.

[urbanoid]

Hahaha, looks like the deal with the Koreans will be signed in Warsaw instead of Korea, as earlier planned. China has apparently expressed dissatisfaction with Polish-Taiwanese semi-conductor cooperation by refusing the right to fly through their airspace.

 

[urbanoid]

Framework agreement signed, spokesman of MoD's Armaments Agency said about purchase of 239 mm and 600 mm missiles, roughly analogues of GMLRS and ATACMS. We're neither buying 131 mm rockets nor integrating 122 mm ones, WR-40 Langusta isn't going anywhere and there will be new orders.

[Markus Becker]

1 hour ago, urbanoid said:

Framework agreement signed, spokesman of MoD's Armaments Agency said about purchase of 239 mm and 600 mm missiles, roughly analogues of GMLRS and ATACMS. We're neither buying 131 mm rockets nor integrating 122 mm ones, WR-40 Langusta isn't going anywhere and there will be new orders.

Langusta, Krab, Homar... that has potential.

Ośmiornica should go well for an MRLS and miecznik for the K9 SPG. 😅

 

[urbanoid]

1 minute ago, Markus Becker said:

Langusta, Krab, Homar... that has potential.

Ośmiornica should go well for an MRLS and miecznik for the K9 SPG. 😅

 

We use crustaceans' names for tube and rocket artillery. 'Homar' is the name of the 'high caliber' rocket artillery program, for now he have 20 HIMARS ordered (and supposedly negotiating about more) and 288 K239. Hard to tell (or at least I don't know) which type will be named Homar - HIMARS was ordered first, but K239 is ordered in a far greater number.

Miecznik is a program for new frigates (Arrowhead 140/Type 31) and will also be a class-name for the ships, so I guess the first one will be ORP Miecznik. The 'neverending' submarine program is named Orca, so I guess that will be the name of the first new sub, if we ever get it. For now it's been in eternal 'anal-concept' phase.

Ośmiornica (octopus) is still free. If we ever have a naval program with that name, I expect hentai artists to do their best.

[Damian]

First 10 K2's and 24 K9A1's for Poland.

[Damian]

AS21 Redback is now boing tested in Poland, by 18th Mechanized Division.

AS21 Redback is considered by Polish Army as it's new heavy IFV that will be used only by 18th Mechanized Division alongside M1A1SA and M1A2SEPv3 MBT's.

AS21 Redback is not a competition for IFV Borsuk, but is meant to supplement it.

[BansheeOne]

Interesting approach. What's the reasoning behind procuring a small second fleet?

[Damian]

25 minutes ago, BansheeOne said:

Interesting approach. What's the reasoning behind procuring a small second fleet?

Idea is that 18th Mechanized Division is meant to defend eastern border and approach to capital. So it will be a very heavy division, in fact I proposed to rename it as 18th Armored Division as it will be armed among other things with 366 M1A1SA and M1A2SEPv3 tanks.

Anyway, idea is that M1's need as a companion a heavy IFV with greater levels of protection, compared to amphibious Borsuk.

While Borsuk due to it's lighter weight and amphibious capabilities will be a companion to K2/K2PL tanks.

First 180 K2's will be used by 16th Mechanized Division in the north east where there is much more forests, rivers and lakes.

[bojan]

AFAIK Redback is 30mm front, 14.5mm sides, with limited 30mm protection to sides at higher angle (in order to cover front 60deg "safe zone"). So how much worse is Borsuk's armor?

[Damian]

5 hours ago, bojan said:

AFAIK Redback is 30mm front, 14.5mm sides, with limited 30mm protection to sides at higher angle (in order to cover front 60deg "safe zone"). So how much worse is Borsuk's armor?

Borsuk front should protect against 30x165mm AP and APDS but not APFSDS. 14.5mm over the sides is avaiable but I do not know if this is base protection. Lot's is a guesswork as protection levels are classified.

[Markus Becker]

17 hours ago, BansheeOne said:

Interesting approach. What's the reasoning behind procuring a small second fleet?

AS21 Redback is Korean too, like the new MBT and SP-Arty. That should get you some standardisation and maybe a good price too considering how much Poland is buying from SK. 

[Damian]

1 hour ago, Markus Becker said:

AS21 Redback is Korean too, like the new MBT and SP-Arty. That should get you some standardisation and maybe a good price too considering how much Poland is buying from SK. 

AS21 Redback shares some major components with K9 and Krab.

 

[Markus Becker]

19 hours ago, Damian said:

Anyway, idea is that M1's need as a companion a heavy IFV with greater levels of protection, compared to amphibious Borsuk.

While Borsuk due to it's lighter weight and amphibious capabilities 

I quickly looked up both IFV and they seem to weigh more or less the same. 25 tons before add ons. Yet one is amphibious, the other not. Incorrect info on the net? 

 

And a more general note on amphibious capabilities. I read they turned out to be of less use than anticipated. While it's nice to be able to swim through a river, that's pointless if you can't climb up the riverbank on the other side. 

 

Thus many countries don't bother any more. Why does Poland? 

 

[urbanoid]

11 minutes ago, Markus Becker said:

I quickly looked up both IFV and they seem to weigh more or less the same. 25 tons before add ons. Yet one is amphibious, the other not. Incorrect info on the net? 

 

And a more general note on amphibious capabilities. I read they turned out to be of less use than anticipated. While it's nice to be able to swim through a river, that's pointless if you can't climb up the riverbank on the other side. 

 

Thus many countries don't bother any more. Why does Poland? 

 

Because of the Betonido Code in MoD. Like Bushido, just instead of Bush you have Beton (concrete) and Beton isn't too... open minded, to say the least. BMP-1 is amphibious, so the successor also has to be. Meanwhile BMP-1 soldiered on, as there was no IFV in existence that would satisfy the Beton.

With amphibious capability being the requirement, the construction itself requires some big trade-offs, especially in the level of protection. Well, there is a Borsuk prototype that looks like it could possibly satisfy MoD, but... Ukraine happened and even if production starts tomorrow (hint: it won't) we won't be able to produce as many Borsuks as we need as fast as we need, so we're likely getting the Redbacks at least for one division (the same that is getting M1).

Edited October 21, 2022 by urbanoid

[Markus Becker]

12 minutes ago, urbanoid said:

Because of the Betonido Code in MoD. Like Bushido, just instead of Bush you have Beton (concrete) and Beton isn't too... open minded, to say the least. BMP-1 is amphibious, so the successor also has to be. Meanwhile BMP-1 soldiered on, as there was no IFV in existence that would satisfy the Beton.

With amphibious capability being the requirement, the construction itself requires some big trade-offs, especially in the level of protection. Well, there is a Borsuk prototype that looks like it could possibly satisfy MoD, but... Ukraine happened and even if production starts tomorrow (hint: it won't) we won't be able to produce as many Borsuks as we need as fast as we need, so we're likely getting the Redbacks at least for one division (the same that is getting M1).

😅 And here I am almost thinking that Polish procurement was so reasonable in the Korean-ness. 

[urbanoid]

The question of BMP replacement is 30 years old and it's one of our bigger fuckups, along with submarine issue. For now we're not sure whether AS21 will have our own ZSSW-30 turret or original Korean one. We hope for the former, but...

Krabs are absolutely world class howitzers but... again, Ukraine happened and without buying K9s we won't have as many SPHs as we need as fast as we need, which means we'll be buying both at the same time. Fortunately they have the same chassis and obviously BMS/comms will be the same.

K2 is a reasonable choice if we want 1000+tanks, license, ToT etc. Obviously ideally it should be uparmored in the K9PL version, but... we'll see.

K239 Chunmoo - great idea, good numbers (288 launchers) with local production of GMLRS analogues and maybe even ATACMS-like KTSSM. I wouldn't even be mad if we abandoned the HIMARS idea altogether now, leave those 20 ordered as they are or redirect them to Ukraine, whatever.

F/A-50 - mixed bag, probably useful in some scenarios and cheap to operate, but it's hardly a 'real figther jet'. Maybe it's a price for having first dibs in KF-21 procurement when it's ready, spokesman of MoD's armaments agency some time ago said that we're watching with great interest. 

[BansheeOne]

1 hour ago, Damian said:

AS21 Redback shares some major components with K9 and Krab.

Wouldn't it then make more sense to have the Korean types serve together for better streamlining of logistics, rather than team the US tanks up with the Korean IFVs and the Korean tanks with the Polish IFVs? Frankly the whole plan sounds like doing a bit of the right thing but negating the full potential effect to save the home product, which seems to have no other advantage than the amphibious capability of dubious use.

[Markus Becker]

11 minutes ago, BansheeOne said:

Wouldn't it then make more sense to have the Korean types serve together for better streamlining of logistics, rather than team the US tanks up with the Korean IFVs and the Korean tanks with the Polish IFVs? Frankly the whole plan sounds like doing a bit of the right thing but negating the full potential effect to save the home product, which seems to have no other advantage than the amphibious capability of dubious use.

What's the delivery dates? Maybe the K2s are expected to be at hand much later than the M1s and AS21. 

[urbanoid]

1 hour ago, BansheeOne said:

Wouldn't it then make more sense to have the Korean types serve together for better streamlining of logistics, rather than team the US tanks up with the Korean IFVs and the Korean tanks with the Polish IFVs? Frankly the whole plan sounds like doing a bit of the right thing but negating the full potential effect to save the home product, which seems to have no other advantage than the amphibious capability of dubious use.

There will be relatively few M1s (6 battalions with 58 tanks each) and relatively few AS21s, looks like both will operate in what will be our take on a 'superheavy division'.

The plan is for a lot of K2s and a lot of whatever vehicle that will become Borsuk.

I don't see any logistical advantage in operating K2 with AS21 and/or K9. The latter two indeed share some components, but I don't think they share any with the K2. And since Krab chassis is also a licensed K9 chassis...

[urbanoid]

And I hope and pray to the nonexistent gods that if we do indeed buy AS21, it will be with our own ZSSW-30 unmanned turret, not that Elbit thing. It's one of the best unmanned turrets available now, widely tested and we have full rights to it and can put it on any new IFV, whether tracked or wheeled.

[Damian]

2 hours ago, Markus Becker said:

I quickly looked up both IFV and they seem to weigh more or less the same. 25 tons before add ons. Yet one is amphibious, the other not. Incorrect info on the net? 

 

And a more general note on amphibious capabilities. I read they turned out to be of less use than anticipated. While it's nice to be able to swim through a river, that's pointless if you can't climb up the riverbank on the other side. 

 

Thus many countries don't bother any more. Why does Poland? 

 

Borsuk weights 25-28 metric tons. AS21 Redback weights 42 metric tons, so there is significant difference.

[Damian]

1 hour ago, BansheeOne said:

Wouldn't it then make more sense to have the Korean types serve together for better streamlining of logistics, rather than team the US tanks up with the Korean IFVs and the Korean tanks with the Polish IFVs? Frankly the whole plan sounds like doing a bit of the right thing but negating the full potential effect to save the home product, which seems to have no other advantage than the amphibious capability of dubious use.

AS21 Redback do not share any commonality with K2. However AS21 shares commonality with K9 and Krab. K9 and Krab will be used in all divisions, not matters what MBT these divisions use.

All vehicles will use BMS systems that can connect with each other.

[Damian]

http://polska-zbrojna.pl/home/galleryshow/3074?t=Koreanski-BWP-na-testach

Photos of AS21 Redback tests in Poland.

[Damian]

And a video.