Polish Armoured Vehicles And Their Modernizations.

[Angrybk]

K2 seems pretty badass, and given Korea's reliability as an ally and huge manufacturing capacity, it would make sense for other countries to adopt Korean kit as well. Is it basically a later-model M1 analogue?

[urbanoid]

2 minutes ago, Angrybk said:

K2 seems pretty badass, and given Korea's reliability as an ally and huge manufacturing capacity, it would make sense for other countries to adopt Korean kit as well. Is it basically a later-model M1 analogue?

A bit K1-ish, a bit Leclerc-ish. Protection isn't all that great in basic version, a bit more armor on the turret would be great for European theatre, as well as isolated ammo compartment. K2 is a decent tank, but nothing special compared to M1A2. Though to be honest nothing is.

[Angrybk]

2 minutes ago, urbanoid said:

A bit K1-ish, a bit Leclerc-ish. Protection isn't all that great in basic version, a bit more armor on the turret would be great for European theatre, as well as isolated ammo compartment. K2 is a decent tank, but nothing special compared to M1A2. Though to be honest nothing is.

Thanks! Obviously I'm just wiki-ing, but what's up with the radar system on it that supposedly allows it to engage low-flying aircraft etc.?

[urbanoid]

5 minutes ago, Angrybk said:

Thanks! Obviously I'm just wiki-ing, but what's up with the radar system on it that supposedly allows it to engage low-flying aircraft etc.?

No idea, guess we'll have to summon @Damian

[Huba]

13 hours ago, Markus Becker said:

What's the delivery dates? Maybe the K2s are expected to be at hand much later than the M1s and AS21. 

First 10 K2s from Korea are already on the way, with initial order for about 200 to be finished in 2025, so more or less the same as M1s. After that we expect to have a production line set up in Poland and start pumping out more K2, for a total of 1000 in following years. 

Issue with AS21 is that AFAIK no production line for it exists and what is being tested is a prototype.  On top of that, if we were to integrate the ZSSW-30 turret with it, it would mean additional delay. There was nothing specific said about delivery times yet, but it can't be too quick. As @urbanoid suggested, potential for a FUBAR is huge... 

Edited October 21, 2022 by Huba

[Mighty_Zuk]

@Damian I've read this thread below, claiming Israeli turrets like Rafael's Samson 1 (e.g. Czech Pandur 2) and Samson 2 (e.g. Lithuanian Boxer) and Elbit's MT/UT-30 Mk 1&2, are unreliable in the extremely cold weather of Europe. Do you think it's really true, or an attempt to justify switching to ZSSW-30? Because IMO commonality is a sufficient argument already.

I've only managed to find some info on the Czech Pandur, and I learned that the Samson 1 had reliability issues at first but that they were quickly resolved.

 

[urbanoid]

1 hour ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

@Damian I've read this thread below, claiming Israeli turrets like Rafael's Samson 1 (e.g. Czech Pandur 2) and Samson 2 (e.g. Lithuanian Boxer) and Elbit's MT/UT-30 Mk 1&2, are unreliable in the extremely cold weather of Europe. Do you think it's really true, or an attempt to justify switching to ZSSW-30? Because IMO commonality is a sufficient argument already.

I've only managed to find some info on the Czech Pandur, and I learned that the Samson 1 had reliability issues at first but that they were quickly resolved.

 

You don't have to JUSTIFY using your own turret, which is better, made by your own industry, with full intellectual rights, ability to upgrade, giving you some commonality between different IFVs etc.

And yes, several European militaries complained about Israeli turrets being unreliable in cold weather. Not that Israeli companies aren't on an unofficial shitlist here, because they are and have been for many years already.

[methos]

2 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Do you think it's really true, or an attempt to justify switching to ZSSW-30? Because IMO commonality is a sufficient argument already.

According to Polish twitter users, their officials claim that the ZSSW-30 cannot be installed on Redback as it would require a complete redesign of the hull roof.

There have been reports regarding issues with Israeli turrets in the past, so there likely is at least some truth in the complaints.

[Damian]

9 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

@Damian I've read this thread below, claiming Israeli turrets like Rafael's Samson 1 (e.g. Czech Pandur 2) and Samson 2 (e.g. Lithuanian Boxer) and Elbit's MT/UT-30 Mk 1&2, are unreliable in the extremely cold weather of Europe. Do you think it's really true, or an attempt to justify switching to ZSSW-30? Because IMO commonality is a sufficient argument already.

I've only managed to find some info on the Czech Pandur, and I learned that the Samson 1 had reliability issues at first but that they were quickly resolved.

 

Israeli unmanned turrets failed all tests in cold weather conditions in Poland. I don't know how it looks like in other countries, but in Poland they failed. Also there seems to be problem with humidity during autumn and winter months.

[Damian]

18 hours ago, Angrybk said:

Thanks! Obviously I'm just wiki-ing, but what's up with the radar system on it that supposedly allows it to engage low-flying aircraft etc.?

Radars on K2 are for active protection system. Low and slow flying threats can be engaged by main gun, using autotracker.

[Mighty_Zuk]

23 hours ago, Damian said:

Israeli unmanned turrets failed all tests in cold weather conditions in Poland. I don't know how it looks like in other countries, but in Poland they failed. Also there seems to be problem with humidity during autumn and winter months.

Guy in the tweet I linked talked about chamber tests, which obviously brings systems to limits that aren't supposed to naturally occur, and these are tests the IDF also runs because it has sub-zero temperatures in some areas of operations. What is the bottom temperature limit for Poland? 

[urbanoid]

8 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Guy in the tweet I linked talked about chamber tests, which obviously brings systems to limits that aren't supposed to naturally occur, and these are tests the IDF also runs because it has sub-zero temperatures in some areas of operations. What is the bottom temperature limit for Poland? 

Late 1941 Barbarossa level, just in case.

[Angrybk]

On 10/22/2022 at 9:00 AM, Damian said:

Radars on K2 are for active protection system. Low and slow flying threats can be engaged by main gun, using autotracker.

Thx Damian!

[Damian]

15 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Guy in the tweet I linked talked about chamber tests, which obviously brings systems to limits that aren't supposed to naturally occur, and these are tests the IDF also runs because it has sub-zero temperatures in some areas of operations. What is the bottom temperature limit for Poland? 

These were not only tests in cold weather chamber, but also during winter in open field.

[shep854]

Also, in Northern Europe the damp, freezing cold lasts for months.

[Damian]

Photo taken during mobility tests conducted by soldiers from 19th Mechanized Brigade, 18th Mechanized Division.

[Huba]

18th Mechanized Division published a video from the AS21 tests. Is it me, or does it look a little bit like an advertisement?  I bet they are completely objective in their tests and there's no pressure from MoD. Not a bit...

 

 

[Damian]

Deliveries of 116 M1A1SA's for Polish Armed Forces will start during summer 2023.

[Damian]

http://polska-zbrojna.pl/home/galleryshow/3076?t=Czy-koreanski-BWP-spelni-oczekiwania-zolnierzy-#prettyPhoto

More photos of AS21 Redback.

And a short video from Redback trails.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Damian

[Damian]

One more video.

[urbanoid]

Awesome photo

[Damian]

1st Armored Brigade video from training course of our tank crews with M1A2SEPv2's.

[Huba]

Today PL signed an executive contract for deliveries of K239 Chunmoo. Korea will deliver 212 launchers, that will be integrated with Polish Jelcz trucks (presumably with armored cabins, so it counts as AFV, hence the post here  ) and Topaz BMS by Polish PGZ national company.
Contract is worth $3,55B and apart from the launchers includes more than 10K (exact number was not disclosed) of guided 239 and 600mm KTSSM missiles - roughly equivalents of GMLRS and ATACMS. There is no info on specific warheads types that PL purchased. Deliveries are planned between 2023 and 2027.

A second part contract is expected too, that will include setting up the complete production of both launchers and missiles in Poland.

 

Edited November 4, 2022 by Huba

[Markus Becker]

On 11/4/2022 at 9:29 AM, Huba said:

Today PL signed an executive contract for deliveries of K239 Chunmoo. Korea will deliver 212 launchers, that will be integrated with Polish Jelcz trucks (presumably with armored cabins, so it counts as AFV, hence the post here  ) and Topaz BMS by Polish PGZ national company.
Contract is worth $3,55B and apart from the launchers includes more than 10K (exact number was not disclosed) of guided 239 and 600mm KTSSM missiles - roughly equivalents of GMLRS and ATACMS. There is no info on specific warheads types that PL purchased. Deliveries are planned between 2023 and 2027.

A second part contract is expected too, that will include setting up the complete production of both launchers and missiles in Poland.

 

1st batch delivered January 1st, first exports to Ukraine on the 3rd I presume. 

[Manic Moran]

On 11/4/2022 at 1:45 AM, Damian said:

1st Armored Brigade video from training course of our tank crews with M1A2SEPv2's.

I note they're running 7.62s on the RWS. Think that's just for cheaper training, or are they not planning on using the .50cal at all?

If the latter, will they use 'em on the M1A1s? They're a little harder to put a 7.62 onto. Does Poland use the .50 cal on anything else?