Polish Armoured Vehicles And Their Modernizations.

[Damian]

28 M1A2SEPv2's used for training of our tank crews that in future will operate 116 M1A1SA's and 250 M1A2SEPv3's.

Edited August 10, 2022 by Damian

[Damian]

Hyundai Rotem sent proposed concept models for K2PL Main Battle Tank and also Armored Engineering Vehicle and Armored Recovery Vehicle based on it to KIPO (Korean Intelectual Property Organization).

 

Edited August 16, 2022 by Damian

[DB]

Aha, I thought the plough looked familiar - it's Pearson's system. It also looks like the obstacle marking system is Pearson's as well.

[Mighty_Zuk]

And also M250 grenade launchers. 

Seems either Hyundai Rotem buys a lot of MOTS equipment for its designs, or wants to integrate as much US equipment as possible to make it attractive for Poland.

[Damian]

2 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

And also M250 grenade launchers. 

Seems either Hyundai Rotem buys a lot of MOTS equipment for its designs, or wants to integrate as much US equipment as possible to make it attractive for Poland.

RoKA for decades uses for example M250 smoke granades dschargers, for example on K1 series.

[DB]

On 8/17/2022 at 11:41 AM, Mighty_Zuk said:

And also M250 grenade launchers. 

Seems either Hyundai Rotem buys a lot of MOTS equipment for its designs, or wants to integrate as much US equipment as possible to make it attractive for Poland.

Insofar as I'm aware, Pearsons is owned by a British company (Reece), and is based at the old Vickers site in Newcastle upon Tyne.

The M250 smoke grenade launcher also looks suspiciously like the one used on the Chieftain, and wikipedia cites another online source as saying that it's the British No19 Mk 2.

There are reasons why military arms production companies *deliberately* avoid US products if suitable alternatives are available - ITAR and EAR - and although smoke grenade launchers are hardly cutting edge, these ones are definitely robust and proven in use.

You will see elimination of US products quite frequently in areas where the US is a competitor, because the US unbalances competitions by selectively refusing permission to re-export systems in markets in which US business competes. (See also Germany, but bizarrely that seems to be more a case of politicians acting as if they have consciences, albeit very selective ones - their stuff is being designed out of systems because they are seen as unreliable suppliers.)

[Damian]

Future crews and maintnance crews are continuing their training on M1 tanks.

[Mighty_Zuk]

Damian, will Poland seek the US's MAPS, buy the Trophy as-is on the SEPv3, or something else?

Also, is Poland set to acquire TUSK kits of any model?

[Damian]

8 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Damian, will Poland seek the US's MAPS, buy the Trophy as-is on the SEPv3, or something else?

Also, is Poland set to acquire TUSK kits of any model?

From what I heard. Trophy-HV for M1A2SEPv3's, but Army is looking at MAPS with interest.

For the moment no information about procurement of TUSK.

[Dark_Falcon]

15 hours ago, Damian said:

Future crews and maintnance crews are continuing their training on M1 tanks.

Could we get more US tanks painted green?

[Damian]

4 hours ago, Dark_Falcon said:

Could we get more US tanks painted green?

US Army is painting new M1A2SEPv3's in green, woodland and desert camouflage patterns depending which unit will use them. For example M1A2SEPv3's that are in APS-2, right now in Germany but when APS-2 site in Powidz here in Poland will be completed these will be moved to Poland, are painted in woodland camouflage pattern.

[Maro.kyo]

I've heard there are some opposition to the procurement of K9 in Poland, especially from HSW, though why is that?

 

From my understanding, current Krab is essentially an AS90 on a K9 hull with localised Polish components, license produced in Poland. Wouldn't that be the same with K9PL? Most of the K9s sold abroad are equipped with local FCS, some even with local BCMS. I can't really come up with a reasonable explanation to the opposition. Maybe it is due to the rumored Cegielski deal?

[Damian]

6 minutes ago, Maro.kyo said:

I've heard there are some opposition to the procurement of K9 in Poland, especially from HSW, though why is that?

 

From my understanding, current Krab is essentially an AS90 on a K9 hull with localised Polish components, license produced in Poland. Wouldn't that be the same with K9PL? Most of the K9s sold abroad are equipped with local FCS, some even with local BCMS. I can't really come up with a reasonable explanation to the opposition. Maybe it is due to the rumored Cegielski deal?

There is internal struggle between various groups of interests.

[Damian]

Ok, so yesterday MoD signed two executive agreements with Republic of Korea, Hyundai Rotem and Hanwha Defence. Within these two executive agreements Poland will procure 180 K2 Main Battle Tanks and 212 K9A1 Self Propelled Howitzers. With vehicles we procure also large stocks of spare parts, training package for soldiers and a lot of 120mm and 155mm ammunition, it is said procured ammunition package will exceed 100K rounds of both calibers.

Now work will continue to negotiate and prepare more executive agreements for K2PL Main Battle Tank and K9PL Self Propelled Howitzer.

It seems that with K2PL Poland will receive very large technology transfer including DV27K engine and EST15K transmission, and of course WIA120 CN08 main gun.

Also GDLS just recently received $1.148 billion to produce and deliver 250 M1A2SEPv3 Main Battle Tanks for Poland.

https://www.gd.com/Articles/2022/08/25/gdls-to-provide-abrams-tanks-to-poland-under-foreign-military-sales-order

Edited August 27, 2022 by Damian

[Huba]

9 hours ago, Damian said:

It seems that with K2PL Poland will receive very large technology transfer including DV27K engine and EST15K transmission, and of course WIA120 CN08 main gun.

This would be great news indeed! What is a little unclear to me is how many of the K9A1 are we buing off the shelf? Initially it was supposed to be only 48 IIRC, with the rest produced locally (though no idea where...), but now it seems we are to buy 200+ directly from Korea.
What is a positive is that during upcoming year Ukraine might receive all the ordered 54 Krabs, and probably many more on top of that.

[DB]

What advantages does the K9A1 system offer over Krab? I'm wondering about AS90, to be honest, knowing that it's getting a bit long in the tooth.

[Maro.kyo]

59 minutes ago, DB said:

What advantages does the K9A1 system offer over Krab? I'm wondering about AS90, to be honest, knowing that it's getting a bit long in the tooth.

AS90 is being retired from the British Army, whereas K9 will continue to serve for ROKA as mainstay artillery and will receive substantial upgrades and have major maintenance advantage going forward with robust user base. Add into that the production rate.

Edited August 28, 2022 by Maro.kyo

[Stuart Galbraith]

We may as well buy some new hulls and stick the AS90 turret on them. That is essentially what the US Army has been doing with its own SPH since Vietnam. As for aging, its worth reflecting on he inablity of Russia to put guns in service newer than 2S19, which is about the same age as AS90.

[Mighty_Zuk]

39 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

We may as well buy some new hulls and stick the AS90 turret on them. That is essentially what the US Army has been doing with its own SPH since Vietnam. As for aging, its worth reflecting on he inablity of Russia to put guns in service newer than 2S19, which is about the same age as AS90.

Or dump it altogether for a new foreign design because the AS90's not getting upgraded, or at least shouldn't.

[DB]

3 hours ago, Maro.kyo said:

AS90 is being retired from the British Army, whereas K9 will continue to serve for ROKA as mainstay artillery and will receive substantial upgrades and have major maintenance advantage going forward with robust user base. Add into that the production rate.

This much I knew already, so thanks for that.

[Damian]

On 8/28/2022 at 7:05 AM, DB said:

What advantages does the K9A1 system offer over Krab? I'm wondering about AS90, to be honest, knowing that it's getting a bit long in the tooth.

Truth to be told K9A1 and Krab are very comparable. It is more about production capabilities of HSW. There is a lot of talking about sending to Ukraine all vehicles that remember soviet era. So all remaining T-72's, also PT-91's, 2S1's, BM-21's, etc.

So we need to quickly fill these gaps, this is why a lot of weapons are procured from US, UK and ROK alongside orders for Polish Arms Industry.

But this is official, all soviet era weapon systems and munitions will be withdrawn from service when new weapon system will be avaiable in enough numbers, and Polish Armed Forces will completely convert to NATO standard. Most likely all soviet era weapon system will be then given to Ukraine.

Edited August 29, 2022 by Damian

[Sherman]

Good Day All,

I am a new poster to the forum, though I have followed it for some time.

I have been watching the events in Poland carefully, as I believe they are the "canary in the coal mine" in what has become a volatile part of the world. Given recent history, and the evolving realities of their geopolitical situation, it is not surprising that they finally shaken off the complacency of the past decades.

It is long overdue that Poland is disposing of their T-72 derived museum pieces (not soon enough the BWP!) and it makes a lot of sense to partner with Korea. While the base K2 is not optimum, no argument can be made that they are not a quantum leap over the existing vehicles, and this initial off-the-shelf purchase is the price for assisting Ukraine, and gaining tech transfers and possibly more favorable licensing from SK.

One major issue I have not seen addressed, is the planning for production facilities in Poland. There seems to be a "then a miracle occurred" in financing, structure, construction of production facilities, training, etc. There will be a need for green field development(s), along with acquisition of equipment, robotics, etc. It is possible that I have missed some news about this, but all I have seen is preliminary conjecture. I realize this is early in the game but lead times on such things are quite lengthy right now, and training/recruitment of a competent workforce is not done overnight.

HSW has their hands full, and it appears the competencies needed here do not widely exist outside of that organization. I have heard Cegielski mentioned as a suggested partner by the Koreans but still, additional facilities and workers will need to be prepared. It will be interesting to see where Bartłomiej Zając may land as that might provide some clues.

The date of commencement of production in Poland by 2026 seems highly optimistic. The need is there, if the military is to grow by even half the proposed 300,000. Ultimately, 1000 Borsuks, ~1000 "Heavy Borsuks", 800 K2PL, 400 K9PL variants, More wheeled RAK, Tracked RAK, Kryl?, TDs, HOMARS components, Wheeled APCs & IFVs wheeled & tracked air defence systems, and more will be required. The numbers are overwhelming, but also an opportunity for Polish industry.

I believe Poland will follow through on the immediate purchases, but until there is a framework for a practicable production plan I will keep my optimism in check for implementation of Stage II.

 

I appreciate the opportunity to participate in the discussion here.

 

[Damian]

Stage II is still in planning phase, so we will wait few years before some solid information will be provided to public knowledge.

But, even with Stage I completed, it will be a huge change for ground forces.

[Mighty_Zuk]

The plan for commencement of production in Poland is still years away, and in the meantime South Korea will produce a lot on its own.

HSW's backlog might be full, I don't know if that's true. But making localized expansions in a short term is not impossible.

Building and even tooling the plants is the relatively cheap part, and the overall cost of the whole project is supposed to be back-loaded especially if Polonization is to increase gradually, not suddenly.

[Sherman]

24 minutes ago, Damian said:

Stage II is still in planning phase, so we will wait few years before some solid information will be provided to public knowledge.

But, even with Stage I completed, it will be a huge change for ground forces.

Absolutely. Almost 400 M1, 180 K2, 140 Leo 2PL. All first line kit.