Polish Armoured Vehicles And Their Modernizations.

[Hal]

On 12/6/2022 at 6:37 PM, Dawes said:

Is this a new request or a previously announced one?

It seems like they "announce" the same sale or transfer at least 12 times as it moves through each step of the process... Deliberately making it seem like "news" - just to fill up space and get clicks. Frustrating.

[Damian]

Ok, so we know some schedules. First battalion of modified M1A1FEP's, so 58 tanks, will be supplied to Poland this year, with first vehicles will arrive in spring. Second battalion of 58 tanks will arrive in 2024.

Deliveries of 250 M1A2SEPv3's should start at the end of 2024 or the start of 2025 and will end in 2026.

There is a lot of speculation that right now there are talks about procuring more M1's from the US also as a replacements for Leopard 2's. This force to ask questions about K2PL project, but I will not dive in to possible scenarios just yet, as there is not enough informations.

Also another batch of K2's are prepared to be sent to Poland, we expect 18 tanks this year. And 12 K9A1 SPH's.

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Damian

[urbanoid]

If we added, let's say 300+, M1s in exchange for PT-91/Leo2 for Ukraine, then K2PL is probably dead. That could mean ~700ish M1A1/A2 + 180 K2 ordered, maaaybe a bit more of the latter.. 

[Damian]

6 minutes ago, urbanoid said:

If we added, let's say 300+, M1s in exchange for PT-91/Leo2 for Ukraine, then K2PL is probably dead. That could mean ~700ish M1A1/A2 + 180 K2 ordered, maaaybe a bit more of the latter.. 

There is such possibility, especially that in 2021/2022 period I heard rumors that original plan was to procure up to 800 M1's.

By the way, Honeywell plans additional investment in Poland, I suspect preparations for engine maintnance center, or maybe something more?

[Mighty_Zuk]

Are the M1A2 specified as M1A2SEPv3 throughout the contract period, or is it a 'most advanced in production' type of contract, in which Poland can tap into v4 and upgrades?

[urbanoid]

I think I would prefer ~50:50 M1/K2 with as much maintenance capability as possible for the former and licensed production for the latter. We can see that the Koreans are damn fast and dependable, also more eager to grant ToT. We would also have two sources of spare parts/replacements if shit hits the fan.  

[Damian]

8 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Are the M1A2 specified as M1A2SEPv3 throughout the contract period, or is it a 'most advanced in production' type of contract, in which Poland can tap into v4 and upgrades?

For now we ordered only M1A2SEPv3's, however there is a plan to eventually upgrade them to M1A2SEPv4 standard. Same goes for these modified M1A1FEP's.

Polish Army is also seriously thinking about Trophy for our M1's, but this will be a separate contract, and it's unknown when it will be signed.

7 minutes ago, urbanoid said:

I think I would prefer ~50:50 M1/K2 with as much maintenance capability as possible for the former and licensed production for the latter. We can see that the Koreans are damn fast and dependable, also more eager to grant ToT. We would also have two sources of spare parts/replacements if shit hits the fan.  

I would not go so far with conclusions yet, I heard various stories, and it's not so black and white.

Edited January 26, 2023 by Damian

[Damian]

If someone is interested in Polish Army structures. Keep in mind that there might be certain innacuracies due to fact that current modernization is an ongoing effort and many things change during this process.

[Damian]

Another video from Biedrusko training grounds, where our tank crews are being trained to operate M1A1FEP's and M1A2SEPv3's.

[Tantalwz88]

https://www.dsca.mil/press-media/major-arms-sales/poland-high-mobility-artillery-rocket-system-himars-0

 

Quote

WASHINGTON, February 7, 2023 - The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to the Government of Poland of M142 High Mobility Artillery Rocket System (HIMARS) launchers and related equipment for an estimated cost of $10 billion. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale today.

The Republic of Poland has requested to buy eighteen (18) M142 High Mobility Artillery Rocket System (HIMARS) launchers; four hundred sixty-eight (468) HIMARS Launcher Loader Module kits; forty-five (45) M57 Army Tactical Missile Systems (ATACMS); four hundred sixty-one (461) M30A2 Guided Multiple Launch Rocket System Alternative Warhead (GMLRS-AW) pods with Insensitive Munitions Propulsion System (IMPS); five hundred twenty-one (521) M31A2 Guided Multiple Launch Rocket System Unitary (GMLRS-U) pods with Insensitive Munitions Propulsion System (IMPS); and five hundred thirty-two (532) XM403 Guided Multiple Launch Rocket System Extended Range Alternative Warhead (GMLRS-ER AW) pods. Also included are Low Cost Reduced Range Practice Rockets; support equipment; communications equipment; spare and repair parts; test sets; batteries; laptop computers; publications and technical data; facility design; personnel training and equipment; systems integration support; Quality Assurance Teams and a Technical Assistance Fielding Team; United States Government and contractor engineering and logistics personnel services; training; sensors; and other related elements of logistics and program support. The total estimated cost is $10 billion.

 

[Damian]

So, today PGZ signed documents with Hanwha and Hyundai Rotem to create consortium to produce K9 SPH and K2 MBT in Poland.

Also, it was mentioned that probably next week, MoD will sign contract with PGZ for long term production of at least around 1000 Borsuk IFV's.

In other news, today I had a pleassure to observe first fire excercises done by crews of K9A1 SPH's bought from Korea, alongside Krab SPH's, Rak SPM's and Langusta MLRS. Also MoD said that there are negotiations with US to produce some types of MLRS/HIMARS munitions in Poland.

Update.

Some additional information. Secretary of the US Army confirmed that 250 M1A2SEPv3's for Poland will be new tanks built at JSMC Lima, Ohio. She also confirmed that first tanks will be delivered to Poland in January of 2025.

Edited February 23, 2023 by Damian

[Tantalwz88]

It's happening !!!.

Polish MOD signed a deal for 1000 "Badger" IFV and another 400 in specialized variants on "Badger" chassis.

 

https://www.wojsko-polskie.pl/au/articles/aktualnosci/bwp-borsuk-dla-sil-zbrojnych-rp/

 

Photos:
 

 

Edited February 28, 2023 by Tantalwz88

[Huba]

And it is to be followd by "Borsuk heavy", with technology demonstrator to be revealed before the year's end.

[Damian]

Correct, new heavy IFV will use subsystems and components used by K9 chassis, but it will be designed by HSW.

[Damian]

First of the 116 refurbished and modified M1A1's (ex USMC M1A1FEP's) are being prepared to be sent to Poland. They will be unloaded in Poland next month.

 

 

[Damian]

Today at Orzysz-Bemowo Piskie training grounds, Poland Republic President Andrzej Duda and Vice Primeminister and Minister of Defence Mariusz Błaszczak, could observe one of the first firing of K2 Black Panther MBT's.

Today also PGZ and Hyundai Rotem signed a final agreement to create a consortium to produce K2PL MBT's in Poland, in WZM plant in Poznań.

I also had a great privilage to observe first firings of K2 tanks yesterday, and talk with tank crews and get to see these tanks up close.

So, the tank crews absolutely love their new tanks. Electronics and fire control system are absolutely state of the art. Mobility and firepower are really impressive. To be frank the only downsides of K2 MBT are weak side turret armor, and non isolated ammunition storage in the hull, otherwise great MBT.

[Helmutkohl]

18 hours ago, Damian said:

Today at Orzysz-Bemowo Piskie training grounds, Poland Republic President Andrzej Duda and Vice Primeminister and Minister of Defence Mariusz Błaszczak, could observe one of the first firing of K2 Black Panther MBT's.

Today also PGZ and Hyundai Rotem signed a final agreement to create a consortium to produce K2PL MBT's in Poland, in WZM plant in Poznań.

I also had a great privilage to observe first firings of K2 tanks yesterday, and talk with tank crews and get to see these tanks up close.

So, the tank crews absolutely love their new tanks. Electronics and fire control system are absolutely state of the art. Mobility and firepower are really impressive. To be frank the only downsides of K2 MBT are weak side turret armor, and non isolated ammunition storage in the hull, otherwise great MBT.

interesting news

in regards to the weak side turret armor, is this in general or compared to their Leopard 2s and Abrams?

has the tank crews made any comparisons yet with their other tanks?

[urbanoid]

Both in general and compared to Leo2 and M1. The proposed version that addresses this issue is some ~6t heavier.

[Helmutkohl]

^ I thought Poland or Korea gave up on the more extensively modified version for a more modest update no? there was some other variant of the K2 being displayed.  It did not have the extra road wheel, but was also not the standard K2.

Did the propose version also address the ammo vulnerability issue?

thanks in advance!

[Damian]

16 hours ago, Helmutkohl said:

^ I thought Poland or Korea gave up on the more extensively modified version for a more modest update no? there was some other variant of the K2 being displayed.  It did not have the extra road wheel, but was also not the standard K2.

Did the propose version also address the ammo vulnerability issue?

thanks in advance!

We know so far that K2PL will have improved frontal and side armor.
However when it comes to improved ammo storage and other changes, this is still uncertain.

In variant minimum it will look like this more or less:


In variant maximum it will look like this more or less:

Edited April 2, 2023 by Damian

[Damian]

Polish M1A1FEP and M88A2. Schedules changed a bit, but we know more at this moment.

14 M1A1FEP's will come to Poland between May and June. Another 42 in between August and September and 60 more in between December and February.

 

Edited April 12, 2023 by Damian

[urbanoid]

Good that we ordered them. Not good that they suck so much visually.

 

[Helmutkohl]

5 hours ago, urbanoid said:

Good that we ordered them. Not good that they suck so much visually.

 

i dont mind its visual look. that seems to be the trend now.. bulky and boxy and less slopes

[urbanoid]

7 hours ago, Helmutkohl said:

i dont mind its visual look. that seems to be the trend now.. bulky and boxy and less slopes

A matter of taste, I'd say Marder/Warrior/Bradley are the things of beauty compared to that. Looks like that largelybecause of the requirement for amphibious capability.

[bojan]

Marder's hull looks good, turret less so. Warrior and CV90 look good but Warrior, unlike Challenger loses looks points when equipped with additional armor. Bradley looks like made by bored kid with too much Lego pieces, proportions are just off. BMP-1 and AMX-10P are pure ugliness, BMP-2 and M-80A are slightly better but still very meh. BMP-3 looks kinda retro-futuristic cool, and Japanese Type 89 is one of best looking IFVs.

This visual abomination... well, it is BMP-1 replacement, so it is right to take "ugliest IFV" title as well.

Edited April 18, 2023 by bojan