Polish Armoured Vehicles And Their Modernizations.

[bojan]

But K2 also does not have fully isolated ammo, unless it was fixed with K2PL?

[Huba]

33 minutes ago, bojan said:

But K2 also does not have fully isolated ammo, unless it was fixed with K2PL?

K2PL is supposed to have hull ammo fully isolated with blow-out panels etc. I'm not sure, but AFAIR there are to be two separate magazines on both sides of driver position ( or not if this is a regular way K2 stores ammo, I remember it was to be changed from original setup).

[Helmutkohl]

2 hours ago, Huba said:

K2PL is supposed to have hull ammo fully isolated with blow-out panels etc. I'm not sure, but AFAIR there are to be two separate magazines on both sides of driver position ( or not if this is a regular way K2 stores ammo, I remember it was to be changed from original setup).

i remember reading some ammo in the turret with blow out panels

the remainder in the hull, but rather than next to the driver, between the crew and the engine compartments? not sure if that is safer.

 

[Damian]

8 hours ago, bojan said:

But K2 also does not have fully isolated ammo, unless it was fixed with K2PL?

Correct, K2PL/K2M as per what I was told during MSPO 2021 by Hyundai Rotem employees is meant to have entire ammunition isolated. This is why large hull ammo rack was replaced by two smaller ammo racks, and driver station was moved to the hull center line. Smaller ammo racks are then placed on both sides of driver station and are isolated. Blow off panels can be placed either in hull roof or belly.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Damian

[sunday]

Hope they manage to make belly blow-out panels somewhat resistant to mines.

[Damian]

6 minutes ago, sunday said:

Hope they manage to make belly blow-out panels somewhat resistant to mines.

AFAIK it's just possible option. As they told me, everything depends on requirements that their client have. Default setting are blow off panels in hull uper glacis, that also seems to act as additional armor. I don't know how it's made. Keep in mind current models are just concept models. Final product will definately be different in many ways.

[alejandro_]

On 7/11/2022 at 7:14 AM, Damian said:

When it comes to mobility, all PT-91's uses upgraded V-46-6 diesel, designated S-12U, which is uprated to 850HP.

 

Thanks for the info. What is the gun version nowadays? Are all using the 2A46MS with improved stabilization or some still have the original stabilization and 2A46?  

What is the service life of the S-12U? Is it 500 hours like V-46-6? 

[Damian]

10 minutes ago, alejandro_ said:

Thanks for the info. What is the gun version nowadays? Are all using the 2A46MS with improved stabilization or some still have the original stabilization and 2A46?  

What is the service life of the S-12U? Is it 500 hours like V-46-6? 

Polish T-72's and PT-91's uses only original 2A46.

As for S-12U service life, I have no hard data, but probably similar to V-46-6.

This is unfortunate, but there is actually very little public avaiable data about our tanks here in Poland, and so far, there is no good book about our T-72's and PT-91's. So far more was written about our T-54/55's.

[alejandro_]

2 hours ago, Damian said:

This is unfortunate, but there is actually very little public avaiable data about our tanks here in Poland, and so far, there is no good book about our T-72's and PT-91's. So far more was written about our T-54/55's.

Yes, I have conflicting information about variants:

- PT-91: Version used by Army of Poland
- PT-91M: Improved version acquired by Army of Malaysia

I have come across PT-91A both for export and in Polish service, and "PT-91M1" production lots.

 

[Damian]

2 hours ago, alejandro_ said:

Yes, I have conflicting information about variants:

- PT-91: Version used by Army of Poland
- PT-91M: Improved version acquired by Army of Malaysia

I have come across PT-91A both for export and in Polish service, and "PT-91M1" production lots.

 

Some sources say that Polish Army uses 3 sub variants. PT-91, PT-91M (not to confuse with PT-91M Pendekar) and PT-91MA1.

[alejandro_]

18 hours ago, Damian said:

Some sources say that Polish Army uses 3 sub variants. PT-91, PT-91M (not to confuse with PT-91M Pendekar) and PT-91MA1.

This information was posted by militarysta in otvaga2004 forum:

I production series PT-91 (1994-1997): 92 tanks ERAWA-1
II production series PT-91M (1997-1998): 27 tanks ERAWA 1/2
III production series PT-91M1 (1998-2001): 113 tanks "modular" ERAWA 1/2
IV production batch export PT-91M "Peandakar/Malaj": (2004-2009) 48 tanks [Malaysia]

 

[Damian]

6 hours ago, alejandro_ said:

This information was posted by militarysta in otvaga2004 forum:

I production series PT-91 (1994-1997): 92 tanks ERAWA-1
II production series PT-91M (1997-1998): 27 tanks ERAWA 1/2
III production series PT-91M1 (1998-2001): 113 tanks "modular" ERAWA 1/2
IV production batch export PT-91M "Peandakar/Malaj": (2004-2009) 48 tanks [Malaysia]

 

Seems to be correct more or less.

[Damian]

https://www.polsatnews.pl/wiadomosc/2022-07-14/mariusz-blaszczak-w-programie-gosc-wydarzen/?ref=aside_najnowsze

Minister of Defence, Vice Prime Minister Mariusz Błaszczak, just confirmed that Poland and USA agreed that US will provide Poland with additional older M1's (variant unknown yet) besides 250 M1A2SEPv3's we bought. How many of these additional M1's will be provided remain to be seen.

Quote

Podkreślił, że Polska pracuje nad "uzupełnieniem braków", czego przykładem jest kontrakt ze Stanami Zjednoczonymi, na dostawę 250 czołgów Abrams. - Będziemy mieć też uzupełnione jednostki przez starszego typu czołgi Abrams.

He stressed that Poland is working on "filling the gaps", an example of which is the contract with the United States for the supply of 250 Abrams tanks. - We will also have units completed by older Abrams tanks.

 

[Huba]

As a follow up, MOD revealed that we'll be getting 116 M1A1SA. This is to backfill for the T-72s sent to Ukraine. No news regarding PT-91s for now.

https://defence24.pl/sily-zbrojne/blaszczak-starsze-abramsy-uzupelnia-nasze-jednostki

[Damian]

4 minutes ago, Huba said:

As a follow up, MOD revealed that we'll be getting 116 M1A1SA. This is to backfill for the T-72s sent to Ukraine. No news regarding PT-91s for now.

https://defence24.pl/sily-zbrojne/blaszczak-starsze-abramsy-uzupelnia-nasze-jednostki

Correct, mostlikely 116 M1A1SA's. However it seems that MoD still gives itself open door to procure more in future if needed.

[urbanoid]

So those are ex-US Army, not ex-USMC?

[Damian]

6 minutes ago, urbanoid said:

So those are ex-US Army, not ex-USMC?

Correct, US Army/ARNG M1A1SA's.

[urbanoid]

Shame, I was hoping we'd get some crayons with the tanks.

[Huba]

And for more news, according to Wolski some PT-91s are already in Ukraine. We don't plan to sent all at the moment though.

Last few minutes of the video: 

 

Edited July 17, 2022 by Huba

[Strannik]

So, Poland will get a certain amount of M1A1s from US (free/as a compensation for donated PT-91s) and then will switch to producing (licensed/tech transfer) K2PL?

 

[urbanoid]

2 minutes ago, Strannik said:

So, Poland will get a certain amount of M1A1s from US (free/as a compensation for donated PT-91s) and then will switch to producing (licensed/tech transfer) K2PL?

 

Yes, looks like there won't be enough of the M1s (250 new M1A2s and probably 116 M1A1s) to fill for T-72s and PT-91s sent to Ukraine. Next in line to retire will be Leo2s and in the end probably those older M1A1s. And we have very good experience from dealing with Koreans, with ToT and polonisation of the tank it will be much easier (and cheaper) to service them. 

[Strannik]

16 minutes ago, urbanoid said:

Yes, looks like there won't be enough of the M1s (250 new M1A2s and probably 116 M1A1s) to fill for T-72s and PT-91s sent to Ukraine. Next in line to retire will be Leo2s and in the end probably those older M1A1s. And we have very good experience from dealing with Koreans, with ToT and polonisation of the tank it will be much easier (and cheaper) to service them. 

K2 looks like an extremely capable tank, better even than M1.  The only drawback is the price - I saw estimates for $7-8 mln.

Then again, Polish DOD has quite the appetites - 500 HIMARS, 32 F-35, subs, PAC-3s, did I miss anything from big ticketed items?

Edited July 17, 2022 by Strannik

[urbanoid]

8 minutes ago, Strannik said:

K2 looks like an extremely capable tank, better even than M1.  The only drawback is the price - I saw estimates for $7-8 mln.

Then again, Polish DOD has quite the appetites - 500 HIMARS, 32 F-35, subs, PAC-3s, did I miss anything from big ticketed items?

Basic K2 is suboptimal, the turret sides are too vulnerable, hence the K2PL idea, with a redesigned turret and IIRC better armored hull sides. I wouldn't necessarily call it better than M1, SEP v3 is probably the best tank out there currently. Still, specifications are not everything, we can count on far more industrial cooperation, ToT and polonisation of the tank than in case of M1s.  

I'm not that sure about 500 HIMARS, that's what the MoD says, but... it's more than the US has. IMO even a third of that would be lovely. Since the first 20, ordered in 2019, are scheduled to arrive in 2023, getting 500... well, just my 2 cents, though LoR was indeed about 500.

From big ticket items you missed 3 frigates, CAMMs, 32 new AW-149s and a big domestic IFV program. As for the new subs we know that we want them, same with new attack helicopters, but nothing has been chosen so far.

[Strannik]

9 minutes ago, urbanoid said:

Basic K2 is suboptimal, the turret sides are too vulnerable, hence the K2PL idea, with a redesigned turret and IIRC better armored hull sides. I wouldn't necessarily call it better than M1, SEP v3 is probably the best tank out there currently. Still, specifications are not everything, we can count on far more industrial cooperation, ToT and polonisation of the tank than in case of M1s.  

I'm not that sure about 500 HIMARS, that's what the MoD says, but... it's more than the US has. IMO even a third of that would be lovely. Since the first 20, ordered in 2019, are scheduled to arrive in 2023, getting 500... well, just my 2 cents, though LoR was indeed about 500.

From big ticket items you missed 3 frigates, CAMMs, 32 new AW-149s and a big domestic IFV program. As for the new subs we know that we want them, same with new attack helicopters, but nothing has been chosen so far.

I know - I was trying hard not to make a joke about 500 HIMARS

Right I read that it would take three years to select attack helo.

That sounds like a 10yr plan even at 3% GDP...

[Damian]

First M1, from batch of 28 leased by US to Poland for training of our tank crews had been seen recently in Poland. These are M1A2SEPv2's.

Edited July 18, 2022 by Damian