Polish Armoured Vehicles And Their Modernizations.

[Damian]

So Polish MoD sent Letter of Request for 500 M142 HIMARS launchers.

It's worth to mention that we want to procure only launchers + missiles. Trucks will be Polish Jelcz, also FCS will be Polish Topaz. There is also talk about procuring license for at least one type of missiles, I guess GMLRS or GMLRS-ER.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Damian

[futon]

Seems like Poland is looking into replacing the 100 T-72s that they gave to Ukraine with K2s and Leo2A7s.

https://www.theguru.co.kr/mobile/article.html?no=35997

[Damian]

6 minutes ago, futon said:

Seems like Poland is looking into replacing the 100 T-72s that they gave to Ukraine with K2s and Leo2A7s.

https://www.theguru.co.kr/mobile/article.html?no=35997

This is wrong.

No Leopard 2's. I talked today with spokesman of Armaments Agency. Within Wilk programme only M1A2SEPv3/v4 or K2PL are considered as probable candidates.

For 200+ T-72's we gived to Ukraine, we already bouth 250 M1A2SEPv3's.

[P Lakowski]

Why spread spending on future tank force based on 3 distinctly different tank models ? Why not focus on just one?

i thought Challenger was included in that?

Edited May 26, 2022 by P Lakowski
additional

[Tim the Tank Nut]

one reason may be that if one supply dries up there are other options available and in the pipeline.

Poland does seem to be determined to defend itself

[Damian]

30 minutes ago, P Lakowski said:

Why spread spending on future tank force based on 3 distinctly different tank models ? Why not focus on just one?

i thought Challenger was included in that?

It is simple. For now 250 T-72's will be replaced by 250 M1A2SEPv3's. Then there is Wilk (Wolf) programme to replace remaining T-72's (~100), PT-91's (232) and in future also Leopard 2's (247).

Within Wilk programme two competitors are trully considered as favorites, either USA with more M1A2SEPv3's (or M1A2SEPv4's) and Republic of Korea with K2PL.

Challenger 2 was never included neither considered.

So in the end our tank fleet will be reduced two one, maximum two tank types, either pure fleet of M1A2SEPv3/v4, or mixed fleet of M1A2SEPv3 + K2PL.

[futon]

The M1s.. better front turret armor, maybe better battlefield management system, better crew surviability. 4 man crew so better on field maintence.

The K2s.. better penetration (M1s no DU rounds while K2s have the L55), lighter, better fuel economy. 3 man crew with autoloader, less taxing on manpower recruitment.

If going with two tank force, any large enough advantages/disadvantage tradeoffs between M1A2SEPv3/v4 and K2PL that may encourage some degree of different tactics or base of deployment? Or not really, basically same bread just different butter flavor?

[Damian]

4 hours ago, futon said:

The M1s.. better front turret armor, maybe better battlefield management system, better crew surviability. 4 man crew so better on field maintence.

The K2s.. better penetration (M1s no DU rounds while K2s have the L55), lighter, better fuel economy. 3 man crew with autoloader, less taxing on manpower recruitment.

If going with two tank force, any large enough advantages/disadvantage tradeoffs between M1A2SEPv3/v4 and K2PL that may encourage some degree of different tactics or base of deployment? Or not really, basically same bread just different butter flavor?

K2PL is not K2. K2PL will have entire ammunition stored in isolated ammunition magazines just like M1. This is confirmed by Hyundai Rotem employees I talked with during MSPO 2021.

Polish Army current requirement for all new MBT's is same survivability like in M1 series. So isolated ammunition magazines is required. This is why K2PL have redesigned hull with drived moved to the center and two smaller hull ammo magazines instead of single large one. Results of lessons learned from middle east and Ukraine.

Also protection level of K2PL should be comparable with M1A2SEPv3.

K2PL will also have comparable weight of around 65 metric tons, considering that only slightly modified K2 for Norway, the K2NO already weigts slightly over 61 metric tons. K2PL is larger.

In other words K2PL is a completely new turret and hull with standard K2 subsystems.

Considering their weight (K2PL around 65 metric tons and M1A2SEPv3 66 metric tons) both vehicles will be used the same way. If K2PL will be choosen as Wilk.

[P Lakowski]

is Poland economy so good to afford all this , or are they going into massive dept or is it shifting priorities?

[Damian]

42 minutes ago, P Lakowski said:

is Poland economy so good to afford all this , or are they going into massive dept or is it shifting priorities?

Government is changing financing, some of this will be funded from MoD budget, there are also separate funds.

Our economy is growing steady. Of course we will most likely need to increase our debt. Shift some priorities as well.

To be frank? Concerning our history, I rather increase national debt, instead of risking that something bad will happen again.

[P Lakowski]

29 minutes ago, Damian said:

Government is changing financing, some of this will be funded from MoD budget, there are also separate funds.

Our economy is growing steady. Of course we will most likely need to increase our debt. Shift some priorities as well.

To be frank? Concerning our history, I rather increase national debt, instead of risking that something bad will happen again.

what about taxes?

[Damian]

1 hour ago, P Lakowski said:

what about taxes?

Believe it not, but current government lowered taxes, of course not all, but some were lowered.

[Przezdzieblo]

"Bread is more expensive, but locomotives are cheaper" - this is what communist regime propaganda said in 1970 after massive rise of prices. In many ways our current gov is reaching for proven methods. Some may expect that huge gold or oil deposits were found right under our soil, but it is still kept in great secrecy.

[Damian]

Ok, so it seems that indeed Polish Army tank fleet in future will be made from two tank types, M1A2SEPv3 and K2PL. Our MoD is having a long visit right now in Republic of Korea, talking with our Korean partners about possible technology transfers, licenses etc.

[RETAC21]

On 5/26/2022 at 3:47 PM, Damian said:

So Polish MoD sent Letter of Request for 500 M142 HIMARS launchers.

It's worth to mention that we want to procure only launchers + missiles. Trucks will be Polish Jelcz, also FCS will be Polish Topaz. There is also talk about procuring license for at least one type of missiles, I guess GMLRS or GMLRS-ER.

500 launchers or 500 missiles? if it's launchers, that like 80 batteries!

[Damian]

47 minutes ago, RETAC21 said:

500 launchers or 500 missiles? if it's launchers, that like 80 batteries!

500 launchers that will be mounted on Jelcz trucks.

[Damian]

Does not matter.

Edited June 2, 2022 by Damian

[Helmutkohl]

https://www.fnnews.com/news/202206071828265773

poland goes for K2s

[Peter Venkman]

On 2/2/2022 at 6:08 PM, bojan said:

IOW, those that expect to fight a real war.

^This.

[Damian]

4 hours ago, Helmutkohl said:

https://www.fnnews.com/news/202206071828265773

poland goes for K2s

Not yet. There are talks and negotiations, nothing was signed yet.

[Damian]

It's official now, PGZ and Hyundai Rotem signed an agreement to cooperate in K2PL development as well as working together on APC's.

Edited June 13, 2022 by Damian

[Damian]

Some new informations.

1. Polish 155mm Krab SPH's were provided to Ukrainian Army, 18 SPH's + C2 and support vehicles. It seems they are very liked by Ukrainian Army, so liked that Ukrainians ordered 50-60 more.

2. It seems that Poland will use in future not one, but two modern IFV's. It will be domestic amphibious Borsuk, and heavier IFV. It seems that this heavier IFV will be South Korean AS21 Redback, which will be modified to use Polish made ZSSW-30 unmanned turret the same used in Borsuk IFV, probably some other modifications will be made as well.

 

3. Oh, and first 70 from 300 purchased Cougar 4x4 MRAP's Polish MoD procured are already in Poland. These vehicles on avarage drived only around 200km, so they are like factory fresh. All Cougars we bought have TAK-4 suspension system. Right now first vehicles are being modified to meet Polish Army requirements and will be repainted in Polish Army camouflage scheme.

Edited July 1, 2022 by Damian

[urbanoid]

Yay, Cougars with tactical penis camo!

Edited July 1, 2022 by urbanoid

[Damian]

155mm self propelled howitzers Krab in action used by Ukrainian Armed Forces.

[Damian]

Fresh batch of news. Today MoD signed contract with HSW for first large batch of 341 ZSSW-30 unmanned turrets. These turrets will be used on Rosomak 8x8 APC/IFV. First 70 turrets should be delivered next year. ZSSW-30 is armed with 30mm Mk44S, 7.62mm UKM-2000C and 2x ATGM launcher.

Another good news is that new tracked IFV Borsuk prototype no.1 yesterday started to go through state trails, which should be done in next 6-9 months, and if everything goes right, we might get production contract next year.

Third good news is that prototypes no.2, no.3, no.4 and no.5 of the Borsuk IFV are now under construction at HSW and will join prototype no.1 in state trails ASAP.