German interest in Apache?

[lucklucky]

That is not that much different from Apaches. You have some with Spike others not, some with MW radar others with only sights.

[TrustMe]

I suspose so, but the benefit of buying American is that you have a massive user base. The French, German, Spanish and Australian only comes to 100 tops.

 

[urbanoid]

On 9/10/2022 at 12:47 PM, urbanoid said:

96, and I don't particularly believe that's the number we'll get in the end. 1/3 of it would be still great though.

I still don't believe in 96, but I don't believe less than I was not believing last year. Madness.

https://www.dsca.mil/press-media/major-arms-sales/poland-ah-64e-apache-helicopters

[sunday]

If Poland manages to keep a healthy demography, that should mean less welfare spending, so more funds to acquire and maintain all that hardware, I think.

[urbanoid]

What healthy demography? TFR 1,26, 300k births compared to 400k in 2016 or so, population getting older and older each year. 

[Dawes]

The official request. Poland seems to be one of the first foreign customers for the AGM-179A:

https://www.dsca.mil/sites/default/files/mas/Press Release - Poland 23-48 CN.pdf

Edited August 21, 2023 by Dawes

[sunday]

28 minutes ago, urbanoid said:

What healthy demography? TFR 1,26, 300k births compared to 400k in 2016 or so, population getting older and older each year. 

Then there could be problems maintaining that hardware.

[lucklucky]

Note that the defence spending is typically so low in Western Europe that just a 2% GDP increase buys a lot of hardware.

[sunday]

Point. There is still the long term upkeeping to consider.

[urbanoid]

Usually between 40-60 and 20-80 between purchase price and lifecycle costs.

Btw. all this doesn't mean that even if we buy 96 AH-64s they will cost 12 billion as the DSCA prognosis said, when we were buying F-35s, HIMARS, Javelins, Patriots etc the price was from ~20 to almost ~50% less.

 

Edited August 22, 2023 by urbanoid

[DB]

I believe that the only hard (pricing) rule for US military exports is that they cannot be sold for less than the current purchase price offered to the US military - which sets a minimum price threshold. Of course, UPC versus contract costs are very variable due to huge differences in the package purchased, which can include spares inventory, support, facility development, training and so on.

[BansheeOne]

Bundestag authorized procurement of 62 H145M plus 20 options and 24 H-Force armament sets; two to be delivered next year, four in 2025, 18 in 2026, 21 in 2027 and 17 in 2028. About 33 will replace the older EC 135 and leased civilian Bell 206 for training at Bückeburg helicopter flight school.

The numbers indicate again that this is not a full replacement, rather than a supplement for Tiger, since Germany has promised 48 attack helicopters to NATO for 2032. The government stated in March that no fundamental decision for the capability of combat in airspace close to the ground has been made yet, that unmanned systems could provide part of it if available, but that particularly in view of fighting in Ukraine, it can't be viewed in isolation; read, related items like artillery and stand-off missiles, loitering ammunition etc. are figuring into this, too.

[alejandro_]

13 hours ago, BansheeOne said:

Bundestag authorized procurement of 62 H145M plus 20 options and 24 H-Force armament sets; two to be delivered next year, four in 2025, 18 in 2026, 21 in 2027 and 17 in 2028. About 33 will replace the older EC 135 and leased civilian Bell 206 for training at Bückeburg helicopter flight school.

Bundestag announcement seems to offer more information than press release from Airbus Helicopters. Is there any link to it? Thanks.

Edited: Regarding Eurocopter Tiger, the latest I read was that they were going to be retired between 2031 and 2038.

https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/bundeswehr-tiger-kampfhubschrauber-sollen-ersetzt-werden-a-40e6f557-7451-4789-ada4-cc91c7d18a62

Edited December 14, 2023 by alejandro_

[lucklucky]

13 hours ago, BansheeOne said:

Bundestag authorized procurement of 62 H145M plus 20 options and 24 H-Force armament sets; two to be delivered next year, four in 2025, 18 in 2026, 21 in 2027 and 17 in 2028. About 33 will replace the older EC 135 and leased civilian Bell 206 for training at Bückeburg helicopter flight school.

The numbers indicate again that this is not a full replacement, rather than a supplement for Tiger, since Germany has promised 48 attack helicopters to NATO for 2032. The government stated in March that no fundamental decision for the capability of combat in airspace close to the ground has been made yet, that unmanned systems could provide part of it if available, but that particularly in view of fighting in Ukraine, it can't be viewed in isolation; read, related items like artillery and stand-off missiles, loitering ammunition etc. are figuring into this, too.

I think with Spike NLOS  Germany can claim it to be an "attack helicopter".

[TrustMe]

Would the H145M  have sensors capable of utilising the Spike's masive range?

[BansheeOne]

13 hours ago, alejandro_ said:

Bundestag announcement seems to offer more information than press release from Airbus Helicopters. Is there any link to it? Thanks.

Edited: Regarding Eurocopter Tiger, the latest I read was that they were going to be retired between 2031 and 2038.

https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/bundeswehr-tiger-kampfhubschrauber-sollen-ersetzt-werden-a-40e6f557-7451-4789-ada4-cc91c7d18a62

Additional information is from ancillary sources, notably Thomas Wiegold's blog. The government report from March is here (both German).

[lucklucky]

5 hours ago, TrustMe said:

Would the H145M  have sensors capable of utilising the Spike's masive range?

Neither H145M or Tigre or Apache can use its full range reported to be 50km for the last version, it always need to use external target information. Note that a Spike NLOS can be fired from an helicopter and then controlled by various battlefield actors due to handover capabilities. 

[TrustMe]

1 hour ago, lucklucky said:

Neither H145M or Tigre or Apache can use its full range reported to be 50km for the last version, it always need to use external target information. Note that a Spike NLOS can be fired from an helicopter and then controlled by various battlefield actors due to handover capabilities. 

Cool, thanks.

[BansheeOne]

On 12/14/2023 at 10:43 AM, BansheeOne said:

Bundestag authorized procurement of 62 H145M plus 20 options and 24 H-Force armament sets; two to be delivered next year, four in 2025, 18 in 2026, 21 in 2027 and 17 in 2028. About 33 will replace the older EC 135 and leased civilian Bell 206 for training at Bückeburg helicopter flight school.

Corrections and additions: all helicopters will include the H-Force arms management system, but there will be only 24 armament sets for the aircraft which will start replacing Tigers at Combat Helicopter Regiment 36 from mid-2026. However, five which will go to the Luftwaffe's Helicopter Wing 64 (which is already operating the H145M for SOF support) from late 2025 are also listed with a combat role.

Of the 33 in the training role, only 23 are for the Bückeburg flight school, the rest being issued with five each to the Heer's two NH90 regiments. This is similar to the Cold War organization where each army aviation regiment had a flight of Alouette II or Bo-105 for sundry missions like liaison, maintaining proficiency etc. Last delivery planned for 31 July 2028, unless the option for 20 additional aircraft gets activated.

[BansheeOne]

Latest information is that operational use of the last 33 Tigers, 24 of which to be in the latest upgrade version, will cease in 2032. That means that either there will be 48 combat-capable H145M at that point (which is indeed the number fitted to receive the relevant kit, though only 24 sets of the latter have been ordered so far) to meet NATO assignment numbers, or a true new attack helicopter/mix of systems equivalent to the capability.

[seahawk]

And 24 is more than the 20 H145M options, so I think it will be a real attack helicopter.