German interest in Apache?

[Dawes]

Depending on how the FARA competition goes, Germany could hold out for these:

https://www.bellflight.com/products/bell-360

[BansheeOne]

FARA will be an armed reconnaissance (compound) helicopter in the mold of Commanche or the Japanese OH-1; a role that might actually be filled by Tiger in a team with Apache if you posit that those upgraded to ASGARD-F standard already (currently 17?) will not be up for quick replacement (Australia did of course in fact procure Tiger as an ARH). I could see the upgrade program halted since it's hard to see how the remaining 28 planned could be delivered until 2026 at the current pace of two or three per year, and one squadron of either type in a 20:20 mix. Or make it two dozen of each if we're generous.

I find now that this was already discussed in 2020, which was probably the background to the original German RFI. Of course an alternate idea was to buy more H145M for light attack duties to complement Tiger downward rather than upward. The 100 billion program does indeed call for more of those (up to 55 are expected), but with the reorientation from expeditionary warfare to alliance defense I'm not sure the focus is still the same. A recent Airbus press release mentioned that attention is increasingly centered on use as a flying command post, for example.

[BansheeOne]

On 6/11/2022 at 2:23 PM, BansheeOne said:

Given the relative young age of the Tigers and German propensity to get maximum use out of investments, however disappointing, it's more likely though that any proper replacement rather than just backup by H145M will be post-2030; either an American Apache follow-on from the Future Vertical Lift program, getting in on the Leonardo AW249 development (not entirely without precedent - in the 70s there was some short-lived German-Italian cooperation on a future attack helicopter before either side went for the Tiger and Mangusta respectively), or hoping for a possible new European solution, manned and/or unmanned.

Well on the occasion of the AW249 prototype's first flight it's being reported that Germany is in talks about it possibly replacing Tiger, though obviously that may mean anything or nothing.

Quote

The New AW249 Attack Helicopter Flies For The First Time

August 23, 2022

STEFANO D'URSO

The helicopter will replace the AH-129D Mangusta in service with the Italian Army.

The first prototype of the Leonardo AW249 next-generation attack helicopter flew for the first time on August 12, 2022, from the company’s plant in Vergiate. The helicopter, formally designated as AW249 NEES (Nuovo Elicottero da Esplorazione e Scorta / New Exploration and Escort Helicopter), will replace the AW129 Mangusta, which has been in service with the Italian Army since the 1990s and upgraded throughout the years until the current AH-129D variant.

The helicopter flew with just its primer paint and the experimental serial CSX82069. On the fuselage and tail boom we can see some lines created with grey and red tape, with the latter possibly being used to attach strain sensors on the surface to monitor the stress on the airframe during the flight. Also, the helicopter has already been equipped with the TM197B 20 mm cannon and the Rafael Toplite targeting system inherited from the Mangusta.

Leonardo has been working on the project since 2017, when the Italian Ministry of Defence initiated the NEES program, which includes one prototype, three pre-serial production helicopters and a need for up to 48 operational helicopters. While at Farnborough air show, Stefano Villanti, senior vice-president of sales at Leonardo Helicopters, said development of the AW249 has been “progressing like clockwork” against the Italian Army’s timeline. The Army plans to retire the AH-129 from 2025.

[...]

While public info about the new attack helicopter are still limited, it is already attracting interest from possible export customers. According to some reports, Germany is already in talks with Leonardo and the Italian MoD about a possible replacement of the German Army’s Eurocopter Tiger helicopters with the AW249. Reports from the BSDA exhibition in Bucharest earlier this year also say that Romania is considering to acquire a number of AW249 helicopters.

Poland was also considered interested, as Leonardo signed in 2018a letter of intent (LOI) with the state-owned Polish Armaments Group (PAG) to collaborate on the AW249’s development. The Polish MoD is, in fact, looking to replace its Mi-24 Hind helicopters, however it has been announced earlier this year that the choice will be between the Boeing AH-64E Apache Guardian and Bell AH-1Z Viper.

https://theaviationist.com/2022/08/23/the-new-aw249-attack-helicopter-flies-for-the-first-time/

[kokovi]

I think it would be criminally stupid to buy anything but AH-64s. It is in a performance class of its own, is battle proven, has been continously updated, has a huge user base and therefore great logistics and would ensure compatibility with our biggest and most important ally.

[lucklucky]

http://psk.blog.24heures.ch/archive/2022/08/24/berlin-s-interesse-a-l-aw249 -873480.html    French.

 Reasoning, more industrial share with Italians than with USA, not to be dependent on all military helicopters from USA.

 

Another point, Italy is now with important total European F-35 orders an increasingly central place due to its unique F-35 assembly line and overhaul facility.

This from 2012 so 10 years ago...

https://sldinfo.com/2012/12/the-italian-f-35-faco-a-key-asset-in-the-global-f-35-support-system/

Now the facility after an assembly and manufacture line is already also qualified for Maintenance, Repair, Overhaul, and Upgrade (MROU) 

 https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2022/07/15/italy-f-35-maintenance-hub-opens-for-international-customers-with-norwegian-jet/

So it is possible that Berlin is also positioning to get some advantages from it.

Edited August 24, 2022 by lucklucky

[lucklucky]

Another point Italians are interested in replacing their tracked IFV Dardo.

Edited August 24, 2022 by lucklucky

[lucklucky]

Poland orders 94 AH-64E

[TrustMe]

That's a hell of a lot. Even us Brits only have 60.

[shep854]

I'm in a bit of sticker shock, just reading that...

[urbanoid]

On 9/9/2022 at 12:02 PM, lucklucky said:

Poland orders 94 AH-64E

96, and I don't particularly believe that's the number we'll get in the end. 1/3 of it would be still great though.

[lucklucky]

Rumours that France in light of Ukraine combat will not heavily upgrade the Tigre attack helicopter and will  make just the essential to have them flying.

Japanese seems to be even more drastic and will go full on drones.

 

All this gets me very uneasy about the  status of conflict simulation of Western Military. Are we a bunch of amateurs?

 

Edited January 25, 2023 by lucklucky

[sunday]

1 hour ago, lucklucky said:

All this gets me very uneasy about the  status of conflict simulation of Western Military. Are we a bunch of amateurs?

Not necessarily. Conflict simulation is based on past conflicts. The thing in Ukraine is a new one.

And whatever shortens the tenure of the Tigre helicopter is a good thing.

Edited January 25, 2023 by sunday

[Stuart Galbraith]

2 hours ago, lucklucky said:

Rumours that France in light of Ukraine combat will not heavily upgrade the Tigre attack helicopter and will  make just the essential to have them flying.

Japanese seems to be even more drastic and will go full on drones.

 

All this gets me very uneasy about the  status of conflict simulation of Western Military. Are we a bunch of amateurs?

 

Anyone playing DCS could tell you the survivability of attack helicopters above a modern battlefield.

Why we havent seriously moved towards gunship drones, ive really no idea. You wouldnt even have to armour those.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Stuart Galbraith

[Rick]

8 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Anyone playing DCS could tell you the survivability of attack helicopters above a modern battlefield.

Why we havent seriously moved towards gunship drones, ive really no idea. You wouldnt even have to armour those.

Would not a kamikaze drone be the same thing? 

[Stuart Galbraith]

No, you can only use a kamikaze drone once. If you can put one out there fitted with 12 ATGMs, better yet fire and forget ones, like Brimstone, you have a system you can use time and again. Costs more, but you can't do battlefield recce or escort with a kamikaze.

Control is a problem, but there are possible solutions for that.

[Ssnake]

If 90% of all drones get shot down, the question is how much re-use a reusable platform will see. Reusable platforms tend to approach the costs of (very cheap) combat aircraft, and you still have the problem that for remote control you have to maintain either a network of signal relays, or of setting up an EM beacon at your control node. What you really want is a stealthy (or a disposably cheap) platform that acts autonomously, but that brings a whole host of other problems with it.

[DB]

I think it makes more sense to have more, smaller, platforms if you're moving to drones as weapon carriers. 4 drones with a single controller (or a pilot and weapons officer) with enough "intelligence" to formate is arguably more useful than a single drone analogue of an Apache. Firstly, a shoot-down only gets one quarter of the capability. Secondly, multi-axis attacks become feasible (with some autonomy). The compromise would be that you're probably not carrying a 30mm chain gun on even one of them.

I wouldn't have a specialised "drone leader" drone, either - make them all interchangeable so you can't stop all four with a "headshot".

[Ssnake]

Or, AI wingmen surrounding an airborne control platform.

[sunday]

Also, more-or-less autonomous swarms

 

[urbanoid]

7 hours ago, lucklucky said:

Rumours that France in light of Ukraine combat will not heavily upgrade the Tigre attack helicopter and will  make just the essential to have them flying.

Japanese seems to be even more drastic and will go full on drones.

All this gets me very uneasy about the  status of conflict simulation of Western Military. Are we a bunch of amateurs?

Tigre isn't a particularly good attack helicopter, so it might be an excuse.

[lucklucky]

8 hours ago, sunday said:

Not necessarily. Conflict simulation is based on past conflicts. The thing in Ukraine is a new one.

And whatever shortens the tenure of the Tigre helicopter is a good thing.

A part is that the existing branches are trying to preserve their power.  So you you will never see a tank branch  saying its subject is obsolete.

Other important part is obviously tunnel vision. If there is no one talking about drones and loitering munitions then they don't appear in simulations or are just a very small part with no mass.

 

What are the Tigre defects to have that not very good reputation?  

@Stuart

Gunship drones would need significant structural reinforcement compared to just firing a missile, which means more weight which means... etc

[Stuart Galbraith]

23 minutes ago, lucklucky said:

A part is that the existing branches are trying to preserve their power.  So you you will never see a tank branch  saying its subject is obsolete.

Other important part is obviously tunnel vision. If there is no one talking about drones and loitering munitions then they don't appear in simulations or are just a very small part with no mass.

 

What are the Tigre defects to have that not very good reputation?  

@Stuart

Gunship drones would need significant structural reinforcement compared to just firing a missile, which means more weight which means... etc

Well, this could carry up to 6 Brimstone. So if you start with a clean sheet, no problems.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.popsci.com/technology/t-650-heavy-lift-drone/%3famp

[sunday]

35 minutes ago, lucklucky said:

What are the Tigre defects to have that not very good reputation? 

Out of the top of my head:

- Too expensive

- Gun mount too flimsy, so gunfire is inaccurate.

- Underpowered.

[lucklucky]

Thanks.

[TrustMe]

1 hour ago, lucklucky said:

What are the Tigre defects to have that not very good reputation?  

 

Their are no type standardized aircraft. Instead, there is four different versions for the four different users, for example each user has different air to surface missiles, some have Hellfire other Spike etc. Some, for example the German version, has a fixed autocannon whilist the other versions have a helmet sighted maneuverable autocannon just like on the Cobra or Apache's. 

Australia has made it's intention to throw them away and get Apache's, I don't know how far along this program is though. 

I believe the only combat these aircraft have been is in Mali with the French. They were noted as being a lot more capable than the Gazelle cannon helo they were using prior to the Tiger.