Valley of Tears

[bigfngun]

2 hours ago, Stargrunt6 said:

Yep. Most gentiles know about the beef between the Jewish denominations. They aren't aware of the ethnic rivalry as well.

(yekke is slang for sephardim)

 

Quick correction, I think yekke means German-Jews. Eric Bana’s character in Munich was of German descent.

[Stargrunt6]

59 minutes ago, bigfngun said:

Quick correction, I think yekke means German-Jews. Eric Bana’s character in Munich was of German descent.

Quick wiki search confirms your statement.  I stsnd corrected. 

 

 

[Stargrunt6]

Regarding the Soviets anger at how BMPs were deployed: I'm assuming they wanted a more methodical use, with the BMPs in overwatch while the infantry dismounts further away?

[Stuart Galbraith]

From what they say in Weapons and Tactics of the Soviet Army, the Syrians used them like tanks and were disappointed they didnt perform like tanks. The Soviets kinda clicked their tounge and said 'told you so'.

The Soviet doctrine was to use the BMP to bypass high concentrations of enemy troops. It was designed as a nuclear strike exploitation vehicle. So you really have to ask whether its use on the Golan was appropriate at all.

[RETAC21]

10 hours ago, Ssnake said:

The "advisers" they hire are just window dressing.

Except in Full Metal Jacket, obviously

[RETAC21]

3 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

From what they say in Weapons and Tactics of the Soviet Army, the Syrians used them like tanks and were disappointed they didnt perform like tanks. The Soviets kinda clicked their tounge and said 'told you so'.

The Soviet doctrine was to use the BMP to bypass high concentrations of enemy troops. It was designed as a nuclear strike exploitation vehicle. So you really have to ask whether its use on the Golan was appropriate at all.

There was place for them when the 188 Brigade front collapsed, to exploit all the way to Bnot Jaakov bridge, but that would have required qualities that the Syrian command lacked.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Yes, that was the hole Greengold and 'Force Tzvika' filled I believe? Nothing a battalion of BMP's couldnt have knocked over.

I agree, it was beyond them.

[RETAC21]

13 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Yes, that was the hole Greengold and 'Force Tzvika' filled I believe? Nothing a battalion of BMP's couldnt have knocked over.

I agree, it was beyond them.

Not exactly, they were positioned on Tapline, running north to the Northern front HQ. the way was open to the Sea of Galilee, but the Syrians stopped becuase they had no orders from above to exploit, and above in this case went all the way to Hafez El Assad, so the whole machine sat tight until counterattacked, at which point it collapsed.

[Gorka L. Martinez-Mezo]

17 hours ago, bigfngun said:

They are Sephardic Jews. Jews that were living in other Middle Eastern countries or Spain. Ethnicity is Arab, but religion is Judaism. There’s a large Sephardic community in NY. The racism that the Black Panthers in the series were fighting was the dislike between Jews of Ashkenazi descent and the Sephardic Jews.

They are Mizrahi Jews, descendants of the local Jewish communities that had existed in the Middle East and North Africa, not Sephardic. That’s why they speak Arab and their families are of Moroccan extraction. Apparently this community is still suffering from racism in modern Israel. 
 

I watched the series on HBO and l wasn’t terribly impressed, although they have used at least real tank ammo if badly identified. No APDS but lots of M111 around, l suppose discarded by the lDF.

I’ve read this is one of the more expensive lsraeli TV shows and a large chunk of the cost was getting a number of historical vehicles moving again. The Centurions even have working stabilization, noteworthy.

the scenes shot inside the tank are good, as the mentioned dud scene. Still, later on the tank is hit and we barely see anything besides digital fire. I don’t go more into it not to spoil anybody watching the series.

there’s a lot of CGI and l really think this was a missed opportunity. The initial defense of the ramps looks strange, with the tanks moving around as nothing was happening and the Syrian tanks appear as simple green screened over the terrain. Of course, no anti tank ditch. Later, it gets quite confusing and we have trapped Israelis being visited by jeeps but unable to break out, M113s being driven recklessly..... As l’m not familiar with the  Mt Hermon affair, I can give no opinion.

could have been worse, but could  have been better with some care.

[Stuart Galbraith]

If I was being critical, I noted in the clips the Centurions still have the racks for the blazer amour on the turret. A little thing, but if we are collecting niggles....

Be nice if one of the restored Cents went back to Bovie. They lack an IDF one.

[Nikolas93TS]

Regarding the Jewish population, there is also The Spy with Sacha Baron Cohen, and very important part of plot is the fact he is an Egyptian Jew. 

[Gorka L. Martinez-Mezo]

4 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

If I was being critical, I noted in the clips the Centurions still have the racks for the blazer amour on the turret. A little thing, but if we are collecting niggles....

Be nice if one of the restored Cents went back to Bovie. They lack an IDF one.

Yes, it’s quite obvious but l guess the historical advisers weren’t that well versed

[RETAC21]

3 minutes ago, Gorka L. Martinez-Mezo said:

Yes, it’s quite obvious but l guess the historical advisers weren’t that well versed

Or they had to work with what they had. They Syrian tanks are Tirans

[Gorka L. Martinez-Mezo]

29 minutes ago, RETAC21 said:

Or they had to work with what they had. They Syrian tanks are Tirans

The CGI ones looks like T-62s. On the ERA attachment points, it would have relatively easy to remove them, far easier than getting them working again!

[Stargrunt6]

46 minutes ago, RETAC21 said:

Or they had to work with what they had. They Syrian tanks are Tirans

Yeah I figured they were.  That bore evacuator doesn't belong there haha.

[bigfngun]

6 hours ago, Gorka L. Martinez-Mezo said:

They are Mizrahi Jews, descendants of the local Jewish communities that had existed in the Middle East and North Africa, not Sephardic. That’s why they speak Arab and their families are of Moroccan extraction. Apparently this community is still suffering from racism in modern Israel. 

 

I never heard that word used by the local non-Ashkenazi Jews. Spanish Jews and Middle Eastern Jews (Last names like Franco or Tamil) lived together in what us Gentiles called the Sephardic Community. The Syrian Jews did refer to themselves as “SY.” 
Ashkenazi Jews were not around there.

[Mighty_Zuk]

The production is already the highest in Israel's cinema history. Getting it even more realistic would cost more as it would take hiring workshops and people with accurate knowledge of such things, to get tanks and ammo prepped for the filming. We're not the audience majority. The general public sees historical accuracy, but not technical accuracy. I'm sure when we're watching space movies there are some space buffs getting pissed about minor details but we're enjoying the movie.

[Stargrunt6]

1 hour ago, bigfngun said:

I never heard that word used by the local non-Ashkenazi Jews. Spanish Jews and Middle Eastern Jews (Last names like Franco or Tamil) lived together in what us Gentiles called the Sephardic Community. The Syrian Jews did refer to themselves as “SY.” 
Ashkenazi Jews were not around there.

I thought I heard the term "mizrahim" in the show.

 

Regarding technical accuracy, I love the movie Wargames even though computer types scoff at it.

[shep854]

2 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

The production is already the highest in Israel's cinema history. Getting it even more realistic would cost more as it would take hiring workshops and people with accurate knowledge of such things, to get tanks and ammo prepped for the filming. We're not the audience majority. The general public sees historical accuracy, but not technical accuracy. I'm sure when we're watching space movies there are some space buffs getting pissed about minor details but we're enjoying the movie.

Good points, and correct!  

Mr Picky will not be silenced, though...especially on This Grate Sight.

Edited January 2, 2021 by shep854

[Stargrunt6]

Favorite scenes?

[bigfngun]

Why did Meni become religious after the war?

[Gorka L. Martinez-Mezo]

5 hours ago, bigfngun said:

Why did Meni become religious after the war?

He lost his only son just at the time he had accepted the fact and grow close to him after ignoring him for all his life; such a loss would justify changing his lifestyle postwar

[Gorka L. Martinez-Mezo]

10 hours ago, shep854 said:

Good points, and correct!  

Mr Picky will not be silenced, though...especially on This Grate Sight.

Still, calling HEAT heat and not hesh is free. But if you spend a lot of money getting a bunch of old tanks resdy again, surely removing ERA attachment points would be cheaper than repairing the stabilization system! 😜

[RETAC21]

13 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

The production is already the highest in Israel's cinema history. Getting it even more realistic would cost more as it would take hiring workshops and people with accurate knowledge of such things, to get tanks and ammo prepped for the filming. We're not the audience majority. The general public sees historical accuracy, but not technical accuracy. I'm sure when we're watching space movies there are some space buffs getting pissed about minor details but we're enjoying the movie.

Hopefully it's not that realistic, the whiny intelligence analyst and the unhinged tank commander really grate my nerves!

[On the way]

15 hours ago, RETAC21 said:

Or they had to work with what they had. They Syrian tanks are Tirans

Ah yes, the guns on the syrian tanks looked like a 105mm L7