Flakturm

[Murph]

How effective were the various Flakturms in defending Germany in WWII?  And are they any use today?

[Markus Becker]

They were a combination of gun emplacements, command centers and air raid shelters. Taken together they were IMO worth it. Intakt ones are in Vienna. The Youtuber Military History Visualized has detailed videos on them. 

[Murph]

It looks like some of them used the 128mm Zwilling cannons.  Was this the only place they were deployed?

[Stuart Galbraith]

Im near certain ive seen a reference to a battery of 128mm guns mounted near Le Havre. But I cant think of a logical reason why they would be there, and ive never seen any other confirmation of it.

Edited November 2, 2020 by Stuart Galbraith

[DougRichards]

11 minutes ago, Murph said:

It looks like some of them used the 128mm Zwilling cannons.  Was this the only place they were deployed?

Some were deployed on railway waggons as a way of providing heavy AA to threatened areas.

[RETAC21]

On 11/2/2020 at 12:43 PM, Stuart Galbraith said:

Im near certain ive seen a reference to a battery of 128mm guns mounted near Le Havre. But I cant think of a logical reason why they would be there, and ive never seen any other confirmation of it.

Why not? Le Havre has a S boot flotilla that needed protection. Wiki sez 200 were mounted on railcars and there were 34 twin mounts used mainly in towers. Those in Vienna are certainly impressive!

[Stuart Galbraith]

Did they mount them anywhere else along the Atlantic wall though? I cant think of any. When I was going through Rich's data (thanks again for that Rich), the heaviest they had was 105mm's defending Cherbourg, which I would have assumed would be the heaviest. The oddest thing was, the Le Havre 128mm's,   were described not as defending the port, but the airfield to the NW (whose name I forget, but I presume might be Abbeville?). I don't quite know what to make of it.

What was interesting was learning quite what a prodigious amount of captured Bofors and British 3.7inchers they had protecting the rest of the Atlantic wall.

Edited November 3, 2020 by Stuart Galbraith

[seahawk]

On 11/1/2020 at 10:36 PM, Murph said:

How effective were the various Flakturms in defending Germany in WWII?  And are they any use today?

Depends on what you mean by effective. They allowed the extra heavy guns 128mm to be deployed within the city centres without the guns damaging buildings, but most importantly they made for very good and big air raid shelters. With one of the sheltering up to 25.000 people in a worst case but also still having planed capacities up to 15.000. Interestingly they were barrier-free so that people in with limited mobility and women with strollers could enter easily. In combination with the Leitbunker that had radar, they were probably the most effective AAA systems, but effective is relative in that regard. The Flakturms in Berlin proofed to be highly effective when being used against advancing ground forces, stopping any advance by the Red Army within their line of fire.

[sunday]

During the Berlin I&I, Axel and Dave programmed a guided visit to the Zoo Flakturm. According to the docent, the number of planes downed by that FT was in the one/two digit range. However, the tower had a very powerful dissuasive effect, and bomber crews tended to avoid their fire.

[Dave Clark]

On 11/3/2020 at 7:19 PM, sunday said:

During the Berlin I&I, Axel and Dave programmed a guided visit to the Zoo Flakturm. According to the docent, the number of planes downed by that FT was in the one/two digit range. However, the tower had a very powerful dissuasive effect, and bomber crews tended to avoid their fire.

No, you visited the FT at Humboldthain in the former French sector.

The Zoo FT was destroyed on 30.07.1948 by the British using 35 tons of explosives. Admittedly they had already had two previous attempts; on 35.07.1947 with 25 tons of explosives and again on 27.09.1947 with 21 tons of explosives!

The amount of aircraft shot down by the Berlin FTs is not supported by documentary evidence but is estimated to be as follows:

Humboldthain = 32
Friedrichshain = 16-20
Zoo = 13+

[sunday]

I stand corrected then, thanks, Dave.

[Dave Clark]

On 11/1/2020 at 10:36 PM, Murph said:

How effective were the various Flakturms in defending Germany in WWII?  And are they any use today?

Flaktürme were constructed in only 3 cities in the Reich:

Berlin - to protect the governmental district. Of the 3 FTs built in Berlin, Friedrichhain was demolished by the Soviets and buried under a hill of rubble and earth; Zoo was demolished by the British and also buried under rubble and earth. In the mid fifties, due to planned U-Bahn construction, the Zoo FT was uncovered and completely removed, the rubble being ground up and used for road and rail construction. The Humboldthain FT, although only partially demolished, also (mainly) disappeared under a covering of rubble and earth. In 2003 the association "Berliner Unterwelten" received authorisation to examine the interior of the FT, subsequently gaining permission to conduct guided tours during the summer months. In winter it is the winter quarters for Berlin's population of bats!

Hamburg - to protect the docks. Here there were only two FT - one on the Heiligengeistfeld (St Pauli) now known as the "Medienbunker" with various media  (and other) firms, and a discotheque; the other in Wilhelmsburg now known as the "Energiebunker" with a biomass powerstation, a solar energy installation and a water storage tank.

Vienna - well AH was Austrian wasn't he!  The Esterhazypark FT was converted into a deepsea aquarium in 1958 while the Arenbergpark FT has been used as storage and by a theatre group. The Augarten FT remains, despite a number of proposals, unused. I suspect that Ken Estes, as a relatively recent visitor to Vienna, can tell us more!

SOURCES:

Foedrowitz, Michael. Die Flaktürme in Berlin, Hamburg und Wien 1940 - 1950. Podzun-Pallas-Verlag, Wölfersheim-Berstadt, 1996. ISBN 3-7909-0575-5. (Waffen-Arsenal Sonderband S-44)
Foedrowitz, Michael. Flak-Türme. Published privately, Berlin, 2007
 Kaule, Martin. Der historische Reiseführer: Nordseeküste 1933-1945 Mit Hamburg und Bremen. Christoph Links, Berlin 2011. ISBN 978-3-86153-633-8
**Page 67**

 

[MiloMorai]

Some of the "doubles" were mounted and fixed onto flat railcars to fulfill long-range mission requirements while still others were affixed to flatbed heavy trailers allowing them to be towed by vehicles such as the SdKfz 9 series halftrack. In its heavy trailer form, the platform fielded six solid rubber tires on each side and was further supported by way of a rugged suspension needed to hold the 12 ton gun system.

 

[RichTO90]

34 minutes ago, MiloMorai said:

Some of the "doubles" were mounted and fixed onto flat railcars to fulfill long-range mission requirements while still others were affixed to flatbed heavy trailers allowing them to be towed by vehicles such as the SdKfz 9 series halftrack. In its heavy trailer form, the platform fielded six solid rubber tires on each side and was further supported by way of a rugged suspension needed to hold the 12 ton gun system.

Unfortunately, the "Meiller" transporter to mechanize the 12.8cm twin Flak gun was cancelled in 1942. Only ten twin systems were completed in 1942, along with 45 single mounts and 27 spare tubes. In 1943, 301 tubes were completed, 282 single mount and 8 twin mount, along with 3 spares. In 1944, 593 tubes were completed, but I do not have a breakdown of mounts. However, by the end of 1944, there were 31 twin mounts and 525 single mounts. Virtually all the twin mounts were in Flakturm, while 150 12.8cn guns defended Leuna.

[Stuart Galbraith]

12 hours ago, Dave Clark said:

No, you visited the FT at Humboldthain in the former French sector.

The Zoo FT was destroyed on 30.07.1948 by the British using 35 tons of explosives. Admittedly they had already had two previous attempts; on 35.07.1947 with 25 tons of explosives and again on 27.09.1947 with 21 tons of explosives!

The amount of aircraft shot down by the Berlin FTs is not supported by documentary evidence but is estimated to be as follows:

Humboldthain = 32
Friedrichshain = 16-20
Zoo = 13+

There was an interesting aside about one of the Berlin Flakbunkers (I would have to check which one) in Alfred Prices 'Instruments of Darkness'. When the Germans recovered the first H2S Radar (I think they called it Rotterdam after where it was recovered) they removed it to Berlin. Figuring out it was some kind of radar navigation system, they created a new observation screen, errected it on one of the Berlin Flakbunkers and were rewarded with a perfect plan of Berlin. This could have been really good news for them, if they hadnt removed it and the whole system been destroyed by allied bombing a few weeks later, setting them back months. Oops.

Did I read that they kept some of the Berlin Art collection in one of the smaller optical tracking bunkers, and it was lost to looting and a fire at the end of the war? I cant remember if that was Berlin or Vienna.

[DougRichards]

3 hours ago, RichTO90 said:

Unfortunately, the "Meiller" transporter to mechanize the 12.8cm twin Flak gun was cancelled in 1942. Only ten twin systems were completed in 1942, along with 45 single mounts and 27 spare tubes. In 1943, 301 tubes were completed, 282 single mount and 8 twin mount, along with 3 spares. In 1944, 593 tubes were completed, but I do not have a breakdown of mounts. However, by the end of 1944, there were 31 twin mounts and 525 single mounts. Virtually all the twin mounts were in Flakturm, while 150 12.8cn guns defended Leuna.

Was not part of the problem that the 12.8cm was of such 'high performance' that a single engagement, maybe two, would mean that the barrels and chambers would need to be replaced every second day or so?  The later, even heavier, FlaK guns would have needed new barrels / chambers after every engagement.   The difficulty was not about providing ammunition so much as new barrels and the like.  Hence we should not forget the Me163 and Bachem  Ba 349 programmes, that were, in essence, 'guided missiles' even if the guidance was to be preformed by a semi-expendable pilot?

it is also interesting that the Brits did not emulate Flakturms, and just dealt with the problem with conventional means.

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

Yeah, ignoring it and hoping it would go away.

We put the AA gun batteries in clearings and public parks. There was infrastructure, but no more than you would expect from an 88mm battery. Air Raid shelters, we didnt build any. In fact we tried to stop people sheltering in the tube stations still it got ugly. Belatedly we started building deep shelter's, the justification was we could use them as part of a deep level tube system when the war was over (Never actually built). It completely missed the blitz, but was finished just in time for the V weapon attacks. 

 

The nearest we got to building a flakbunker was the big admiralty telephone exchange (or at least that is the story I heard) that sits on horseguards parade to this day. Its got ivy growing over it so most people seem to not quite see it. I mean, squint a bit and it looks like a shrubbery, right?

[Dave Clark]

10 hours ago, DougRichards said:

Was not part of the problem that the 12.8cm was of such 'high performance' that a single engagement, maybe two, would mean that the barrels and chambers would need to be replaced every second day or so?  The later, even heavier, FlaK guns would have needed new barrels / chambers after every engagement.   The difficulty was not about providing ammunition so much as new barrels and the like.  Hence we should not forget the Me163 and Bachem  Ba 349 programmes, that were, in essence, 'guided missiles' even if the guidance was to be preformed by a semi-expendable pilot?

it is also interesting that the Brits did not emulate Flakturms, and just dealt with the problem with conventional means.

 

The original versions of the 12,8cm Flak 40 series had a barrel life of 1,000 rounds. A Product Improvement programme doubled the barrel life to 2,000 rounds.

 

Not directly, but they did construct the Maunsell AA Forts in the Thames and Mersey estuaries.

 

Maunsell Forts - Wikipedia

[Dave Clark]

12 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

There was an interesting aside about one of the Berlin Flakbunkers (I would have to check which one) in Alfred Prices 'Instruments of Darkness'. When the Germans recovered the first H2S Radar (I think they called it Rotterdam after where it was recovered) they removed it to Berlin. Figuring out it was some kind of radar navigation system, they created a new observation screen, errected it on one of the Berlin Flakbunkers and were rewarded with a perfect plan of Berlin. This could have been really good news for them, if they hadnt removed it and the whole system been destroyed by allied bombing a few weeks later, setting them back months. Oops.

Did I read that they kept some of the Berlin Art collection in one of the smaller optical tracking bunkers, and it was lost to looting and a fire at the end of the war? I cant remember if that was Berlin or Vienna.

Yes, it was recovered on 03.02.1943 from a Sterling which had been shot down near Rotterdam returning from a raid on Cologne. As you say it was destroyed in a raid on 01.03.1943, however a replacement was obtained from a Halifax shot down the same night. Together with German components this was mounted on the Humbolthain command bunker and tested shortly before Whitsun 1943.

 

The art collection was in the G-Turm (the gun tower) at the Berlin Zoo - actually in the designated British Sector. That of course didn't matter to the Soviets who were scooping up "Reparations" right, left and centre!

[Dave Clark]

16 hours ago, MiloMorai said:

Some of the "doubles" were mounted and fixed onto flat railcars to fulfill long-range mission requirements while still others were affixed to flatbed heavy trailers allowing them to be towed by vehicles such as the SdKfz 9 series halftrack. In its heavy trailer form, the platform fielded six solid rubber tires on each side and was further supported by way of a rugged suspension needed to hold the 12 ton gun system.

 

Very nice picture of the last existant 12,8cm Flak 40M Zwilling (the naval version) at APG. It is on a Culemeyer R80-2 heavy duty trailer, which would be used to move the gun to its place of installation. This particular gun was installed in Bremerhaven-Eckwarderhörne. The Culemeyer trailer was developed in the early thirties by the Reichsbahn in order to transport rail wagons to locations with no rail connection. They then started transporting very large loads (such as transformers) which exceeded the minimum clearance outline (ie were too big to go through a tunnel or under a bridge!)

The 12,8cm Flak 40/4 was the single barrelled version mounted on the Geschützwagen II of the Reichsbahn. In 1945 there were 212 of these still in service.

SOURCE:

Fröhlich, Michael. Schwere Panzer der Wehrmacht: Von der 12,8 cm Flak bis zum Jagdtiger. Motorbuch Verlag, Stuttgart, 2015. ISBN 978-3-613-03806-6

**Pages 6-12**

 

Edited November 10, 2020 by Dave Clark
Add source details

[DougRichards]

6 hours ago, Dave Clark said:

The original versions of the 12,8cm Flak 40 series had a barrel life of 1,000 rounds. A Product Improvement programme doubled the barrel life to 2,000 rounds.

 

Not directly, but they did construct the Maunsell AA Forts in the Thames and Mersey estuaries.

 

Maunsell Forts - Wikipedia

Hogg quotes 12 rounds per minute per barrel, so in a one hour engagement that is 720 rounds if maintained.  In a situation of dealing with two raids each 24 hours (RAF by night, USAAF by day) with each engagement taking about an hour, that would still mean 1440 rounds per day, that would wear barrels out quite rapidly. Even if there was only one half hour engagement a day, that would be 300 rounds or so, or three days for the early barrels and six days for the improved ones.

[WRW]

These guns must have thrown a lot of metal up into the sky. How problematic was the return to earth of this material?

[sunday]

One of the reasons for having the civilian population in bunkers during air attacks was protecting them of AA splinters falling to the ground, I think.

Edited November 11, 2020 by sunday

[Stuart Galbraith]

We were losing people all the time to shrapnel, which is part of the reason why so many ARP personnel had tin helmets.

Its interesting to note that in the Battle of Los Angeles (which formed the core of the movie 1941) there was 5 people killed indirectly by the shooting. 3 in Car accidents, 2 in heart attacks. Im sure I read somewhere else there was also property damage and fires from duds coming back down and going off, but I wont swear to that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Los_Angeles#:~:text=The Battle of Los Angeles%2C also known as,early 25 February 1942%2C over Los Angeles%2C California.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Actually you can see some of the damage here, including an apparent crater.