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RichTO90

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  1. That is possible too, but still begs the question of how having those barrels and cans onToei Maru would help any more than having them on Akagi or the ships of 2d Carrier Division and 8th Cruiser Division. It smacks of a desperate Idea-Fairy solution that enabled the planning to continue without answer the hard question of just how they would get fuel oil from barrels and cans into the fuel tanks of the vessels that needed it.
  2. Note the discrepancies between various accounts. The Toei Maru TROM says about 750 barrels for Akagi and 12,000 cans for Hiryu...no mention of Soryu or the two ships of the 8th Cruiser Division for some reason...Dai Toa Senso Senkun talks about tonnages 300 tons of drummed oil for Akagi, which would mean 400 KG barrels, about three times the norm. No mention of the 100 tons drummed oil per ship for 2d Carrier Division and 8th Cruiser Division. Or are those 750 barrels for everything? So nearly one-ton barrels? Or, gee, could the airedales writing Dai Toa Senso Senkun be talking about planning and preparation (in the section on "tactics", which basically talked about just that)...and simply missed mentioning that the success of the new technique of underway refueling made the whole problem of where to store the barrels, what to offload in compensation (300 tons of what from Akagi, aircraft, bombs, rice, origami animals?), and how to actually physically execute such a harebrained idea operationally in the north Pacific ("bucket brigades" ๐Ÿคฃ, tipping over barrels of HFO and hoping it flowed "into the boilers") absolutely moot. The success of underway refueling practice also put paid to Yamamoto's other harebrained fallback plan of executing the attack with just half the force...so why would anyone imagine they took the time and trouble to load essentially useless barrels and cans onto vessels that did not need them? Oh, wait, because a secondary source refers "bucket brigades" without a smidgen of a citation to that extraordinary claim. And extraordinary claims require...
  3. Note that Slackman also has misread the actual source material enough that he has the three submarines, I-19, I-20, and I-23, attached to the Kido Butai as actually sailing with the attack force. ๐Ÿ˜‚
  4. Christ wept, but now we have secondary sources "proving" things not actually found in primary sources.
  5. Late to the party, but I think I missed this since at the time I was busy settling in to our home in Kitsap, so this is a late update. ๐Ÿ˜ The 59 or 60 member "Kitsap Militia" as well as the over-arching "Washington State Militia" apparently went defunct in late 2020, possibly because most succumbed to COVID or possibly despite all the "Constitutional" references they liked to kick around they somehow missed the simple point that self-constituted militias are illegal in all 50 States, including Washington. In Washington, for example, Revised Code ยง 38.40.120 states it is a misdemeanor for any โ€œorganized body other than the recognized militia organizations of this state, armed forces of the United States,โ€ military schools, and veterans organizations to โ€œassociate themselves together as a military company or organize or parade in public with firearms.โ€ I suspect "firearms" includes M47s.
  6. Yes, the hallmark of confirmation bias running amuck. Start with: The supposition that the USN could have gotten its old BB into action by carrying deck loads of "barrelled fuel". Then: "Confirm" it with the "evidence" that the Japanese "100% clearly" embarked "barreled and canned fuel" for the Hawaiian operation. Followed by: Ignoring all problems with the favored theory and instead simply repeat the basic claim...why does this sound like a recent American election?
  7. Does anyone else wonder why the Japanese would carry through with a poorly thought out contingency measure intended as a substitute if the newly developed and practiced underway refueling failed in practice...when in fact underway refueling was practiced successfully on the way to Hittokappu Bay by all vessels?
  8. Has anyone bothered to think about 300 tons of "barreled oil"? A barrel of oil weighs about 136 KG. 300 tons is 300,000 KG. So the Akagi had around 2,205 oil drums stashed...where exactly? Hanger decks? Nope, full of aircraft. Stowage spaces? Which? After all, it isn't a cargo ship. "Cans of oil"? Typically those would be four to six gallon cans. Do the math on 400 tons of "canned" oil. Now we have an American author imagining "bucket brigades" without any evidence or any idea how it could be accomplished, and yet we should be "100% certain" that is what was done.
  9. Indeed, it is a good source...except it also contains contradictions. In this quote Hiryu added 230 tons of fuel to total 3,630 tons and added 200 NM range to get to 8,000 NM. Yet on page 52 it is given as a total 3,750 tons and range is 7,670 NM. Then on page 53 it is noted that the increase in fuel was 350 tons, intended to add 200 NM range, but in the end its range was less than Soryu. We can then look at page 50, where Soryu is given a fuel load of 3,400 tons and a range of 7,680 NM. That actually checks with the Hiryu data on page 53, but does not explain the contradictions on pages 49 (possibly the range difference is due to the speed quoted, 16 knots, whereas the data on pages 50 and 53 is for 18 knots) and 52. Nor does it explain where the widely accepted range of 10,330 NM comes from. It was not a mix up between NM and KM, 10,330 KM is 5,578 NM, so where does that come from? Overall, it does explain why it was felt that both carriers on 2d Carrier Division needed a cushion added...but of course it does not explain how bunker fuel was "barrelled and canned" and then used on board. Never mind of course that in the end it was all for nothing, given that all vessels proved capable of refueling underway and did so, which begs the question of what, if anything, the fuel in the "barrels and cans" was eventually used for.
  10. I love how all these murky question marks are "100% clear" to the adherents of confirmation bias.
  11. The other alternative is that it was intended to improve the ship radius of action, but that it was not bunker fuel, but a lighter distillate. The Japanese did experiment with using raw crude as a naval fuel, so may well have loaded an LFO or a gas-oil aboard as an pourable supplement in the barrels and cans mentioned...but that still doesn't explain why it would have been thought necessary for the Hiryu. Nor does it explain why the information in Dai Toa Senso Senkun is different from that given in the TROM of Toei Maru. Akagi was supposedly loaded with 1,450 tons rather than the 600 tons recommended. The ships of 2d Carrier Division with 700 tons each rather than the recommended 400 tons. Note, of course, Dai Toa Senso Senkun was not written by the Chief of Staff of the 1st Air Fleet, but was by the staff of the Yokosuka Naval Air Corps, could it possibly be the Japanese airedales messed up when it came to the loading of fuel on the ships?
  12. And the squirming begins. "Prange" could be Pearl Harbor, Verdict of History or At Dawn we Slept or December 7, 1941: The Day the Japanese Attacked Pearl Harbor. Of course no page reference, but a cursory glance at the first two does not reveal a reference to"5,000 tons of barrelled bunker fuel" aboard the Kido Butai. Akagi after its modernization carried 6,000 tons of fuel oil and had a rated range of 8,200 NM at 16 knots or 1.37 ton-miles. Kaga after its modernization carried 5,300 tons of fuel oil and had a rated range of 10,000 NM at 16 knots or 1.89 ton-miles. Soryu carried 3,670 tons of fuel oil and had a rated range of 7,750 NM at 18 knots or 2.11 ton-miles. Hiryu carried 4,400 tons of fuel oil and had a rated range of 10,330 NM at 18 knots or 2.35 ton-miles. Zuikaku/Shokaku carried 4,100 tons of fuel oil (not sure then how 5,500 tons was aboard) and had a rated range of 9,700 NM at 18 knots or 2.37 ton-miles. All of which makes perfect sense in terms of their construction and design evolution. What does not make sense is that the two very different carriers of the 2d Carrier Division would be treated the same, but the two very different carriers of the 1st Carrier Division would not. Nor does the idea of carrying "barrelled" and "canned" bunker fuel make any sense. What also does not make sense is the statement "Kaga, Zuikaku and Shokaku could make the attack without refuelling", when Kaga and Hiryu actually had the greatest range. I guess it is made "sensible" by disbelieving the rated range of Hiryu? Gee, I wonder how much "ample avgas" is in this context? Hiryu and Soryu each had 150,000 gallons of storage, but Akagi 225,000 and Kaga 600 tons, so the supposition that it was avgas does make sense either. BTW, sorry I forgot to double the fuel loaded on the 8th Cruiser Division, so 4,010 tons total rather than "5,000".
  13. No, you are simply encountering the usual problems in conversing with glenn239...basically, any source can and will be corrupted or twisted to fit the requirement. "The Japanese embarked 5,000 tons of barrelled oil on their carriers for Hawaii in December 1941. Soryu and Hiryu burned the last of theirs during the run into attack position on the 6th." This is apparently based on page 13 of Dai Toa Senso Senkun (Koku) (Hawaii Kaisen No Bu) Dai Ichi Hen, Yokosuka Naval Air Corps, Air Branch Committee, c. August 1942 as translated 23 March 1948 by the Chief of Document Section, Second Demobilization Bureau. "(b) Steps taken for lengthening radius of action In order to lengthen radius of action, fuel was overloaded as follows: Akagi: 300 tons of drummed oil, 250 tons in trimming tanks, 900 tons in reserve oil tanks, totaling 1450 tons 2d Carrier Division: 100 tons of drummed oil, 400 tons of canned oil, 200 tons in trimming tanks, totaling 700 tons 8th Cruiser Division: 100 tons of drummed oil, 480 tons in trimming tanks and water-proof compartments, totaling 580 tons" So not "5,000 tons of barrelled oil", but 3,430 tons of "oil" in trim tanks, reserve tanks, drums, and cans. In context, it is probable the fuel in the trim and reserve tanks was actually bunker oil, given that is what they were generally designed for, but it could have been gasoline too. Note filling both trim and reserve tanks could be problematic if the ships got out of trim, but it was likely the fuel from them in Akagi was used first. Note also there is no mention of Kaga, even though its range was nearly the same as Akagi's, 10,000 NM at 15 knots versus 10,000 NM at 16 knots, which makes the omission odd to say the least. It may be that Akagi could only achieve that range with its trim and reserve fuel tanks filled. The two ships of 2d Carrier Division are also odd, Soryu could only manage 7,750 NM at 18 knots, but Hiryu was 10,330 NM at 18 knots, so why should it be implied that both were loaded the same way? That was actually better than Shokaku and Zuikaku of 5th Carrier Division, which were designed for 9,700 NM at 18 knots. Again, in context I suspect that "oil" is a generic translation of "fuel" and that the "drummed" and "canned" fuel is more likely aviation gasoline to extend the aircraft radius of action rather than the ship radius of action. Given that the following section of Dai Toa Senso Senkun is about underway refueling, I also suspect the additional bunker fuel was a hedge against a failed refueling and that the additional avgas was also a hedge against any problems with refueling from the single gasoline tanker in the force, Dai Ni Kyoei Maru. However, I do not think the Japanese would be inclined to attempt to refuel at sea from viscous bunker fuel stored, for some inexplicable reason, in barrels and cans.
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