Turn Of Year 2015/16 At Cologne Train Station

[BansheeOne]

There was the usual hue and cry when local Freiburg authorities tried checking the age of supposed underage refugees with x-rays last year, including a lawyer threatening to go before the Constitutional Court. It's being done now of course since he has been established by fingerprints to be the same guy who told Greek authorities he was born on 1 January 1996 (already a typically-sounding guesstimate in the absence of proper ID) in 2013. In another failure he was actually fingerprinted and entered into the EURODAC database when arriving in Germany last November, but apparently not shown as a match; it's currently unclear whether the Greeks entered him. Of course Greek authorities have been notoriously overwhelmed by arriving refugees long before last year's crisis broke.

 

Supplementary data to the 2015 immigration report: compared to the 2011 census, the number of Muslims in Germany has risen by about 1.2 million to ca. 4.4-4.7 million (5.4-5.7 percent of the population). Due to recent newcomers being mostly from the Middle East, South and Southeast Asia, the share of Turkish-descended Muslims has dropped from 68 to 51 percent compared to 2008.

 

Incidentally Ipsos just conducted a poll in 40 countries comparing people's perception of society with actual numbers. I'm gonna post some other results in the "Because Germany" thread, but one finding was that the number of Muslims is commonly way overestimated. In Germany, people on average thought there were 21 percent, and this would rise to 31 percent by 2020; in fact Pew Research recently projected the latter to be about 6.9 percent. Germans were not alone in that though, as others overestimated by up to 24 points (in France). Poland and Hungary had the lowest absolute overestimation listed at seven and six points respectively, but given that actual numbers for both are about 0.01 percent, the relative difference is rather more hefty.

 

[Roman Alymov]

 

Incidentally Ipsos just conducted a poll in 40 countries comparing people's perception of society with actual numbers. I'm gonna post some other results in the "Because Germany" thread, but one finding was that the number of Muslims is commonly way overestimated. In Germany, people on average thought there were 21 percent, and this would rise to 31 percent by 2020; in fact Pew Research recently projected the latter to be about 6.9 percent. Germans were not alone in that though, as others overestimated by up to 24 points (in France). Poland and Hungary had the lowest absolute overestimation listed at seven and six points respectively, but given that actual numbers for both are about 0.01 percent, the relative difference is rather more hefty.

 

 

If we add to this data “scare factor” (how many fictional Muslims represented for public eye by single real Muslim) , then ranking is following

 

Scare factor

• PL - 6000

• Hungary - 17

• USA - 6,66

• Spain - 5,40

• Italy - 4,2

• Deutchland - 4,13

• France - 3,69

• Schweden - 3,65

• Dan - 3,33

• UK - 3,28

• Belgium - 3,24

• Nor - 3,16

• NL - 2,4

• RF - 2

Edited December 15, 2016 by Roman Alymov

[BansheeOne]

BTW there's another case of official failure resulting in a rape, as the suspect who was reported to have assaulted a 24-year-old woman in the toilet of a Reeperbahn club in Hamburg on the weekend after accosting her earlier on the dancefloor has been identified as a 34-year-old Moroccan who was actually to be deported after a theft conviction in summer, and even earlier had agreed to leave voluntarily after his asylum request was denied in April; instead he just dropped off the screen. After his conviction, the City of Hamburg actually asked authorities in Holzminden, Lower Saxony where he was registered whether he should be taken into custody pending deportation, but the latter declined due to be understaffed - the usual story, which probably contributes more to the shortcomings of the system than lack of laws and will. In the present case, the consequence of Holzminden County was to increase staffing of its foreigner authority from 2.5 to 4.5 full positions.

[Ssnake]

Four and a half full positions. I at least couldn't make that up.

[Panzermann]

Four and a half full positions. I at least couldn't make that up.

could have said they add two full positions (to the existing two full and one part time position).

 

and hey, note the optimism, it is a half full position.

[Markus Becker]

"There was the usual hue and cry when local Freiburg authorities tried checking the age of supposed underage refugees with x-rays last year, including a lawyer threatening to go before the Constitutional Court."

 

That's the problem. The authorities from the local to the federal level rather tolerate massive asylum and welfare fraud than enforce the law.

[Panzermann]

"There was the usual hue and cry when local Freiburg authorities tried checking the age of supposed underage refugees with x-rays last year, including a lawyer threatening to go before the Constitutional Court."

 

That's the problem. The authorities from the local to the federal level rather tolerate massive asylum and welfare fraud than enforce the law.

look at the governments having the responsibilities. in most cases redgreen. quelle surprise!

[Markus Becker]

Same in the end. Some don't do their job, others don't make them.

 

And I don't think that CDU local/state governments are any better. Age checks for so called underage asylum seekers without papers should be mandatory.

[BansheeOne]

In fairness, in the present case it would have been a very bad secondary choice. As noted, he was registered in Greece three years ago as born on 1 January 1996, and if he would have been entered/found in the relevant databases, the question wouldn't even have arisen. Conversely, age determination by handbone x-rays apparently is only precise to something like 28 months, so even if he was 19 when he arrived, he could still have passed as 17.

[Markus Becker]

Who says politicians don’t act swiftly and decisively?

 

The CDU and SPD have apparently agreed on an anti fake news law. The same guys who almost legalized child marriages because they didn’t care enough to read the text of the proposed law and then decided to punish them with a laughable 1,000 Euro fine want to impose a half a million Euro fine for fake news.

 

Yes, when they themselves are threatened they suddenly become the Rudi Giulianis of law enforcement. Otherwise they can't be bothered!

 

edit: And I find myself in agreement with ultra-liberal Sabine Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger who is hinting that "balming ones own problems on evil forces" isn't a sollution.

Edited December 16, 2016 by Markus Becker

[Panzermann]

This "fake-news" obsession seems to me more like a good cover story to enact censorship of anything undesireable by our wise leadership. If someone reports something patentely faked, falsified or similar there have been laws for that for a long time.

 

And our media conglomerates always report only the clear unbiased reality of course and never make anything up to make a good story or to support an agenda.

[BansheeOne]

The same guys who almost legalized child marriages because they didn’t care enough to read the text of the proposed law

 

Huh, what?

 

I don't see this going fast, even disregarding that the debate on Facebook being sluggish to comply with relevant German laws has been going on for years (though it really got traction after the break of the refugee crisis last summer). Nothing will happen before New Year, then the law will need to be drafted, introduced into parliament, referred to comittee; and given the difficult questions of free speech, technology and localized responsibilities, there'll probably be an expert hearing and more deliberations before any agreement.

 

Half a year is a good rule of thumb for most legal acts, so this is really the last chance for any you want to come about before the end of the term, since next year's summer recess will lead into the national campaign with no more parliamentary sessions. Which is probably the ultimate reason, because everybody's worried about the very real possibility of targeted information warfare influencing the elections in September. Hence the attempt to make social media follow existing rules and assume editorial responsibility in a way somewhat appropriate to the speed with which they spread information. Whether that will be effective is anybody's guess.

[Jeff]

This "fake-news" obsession seems to me more like a good cover story to enact censorship of anything undesireable by our wise leadership.

 

B-I-N-G-O

[Mr King]

 

This "fake-news" obsession seems to me more like a good cover story to enact censorship of anything undesireable by our wise leadership.

 

B-I-N-G-O

 

 

Fake News is a real issue. Why would all the mainstream media suddenly run constant stories with that totally uncoordinated narrative if it was not so? It is not like the "journalists" from these outlets have been exposed in the past to be coordinating their stories narratives via exclusive internet based web groups.

Edited December 17, 2016 by Mr King

[Markus Becker]

You are right that the MASSIVE noise so many leading politicians make needs some time to be translated into legislation but look at how little time it took to make the politicians vehemently demand tough as Kruppstahl legislation. It seems to me that the term fake news appeared recently and within the blink of any eye politicians reacted. I certainly don’t recall reading the term ‘fake news’ until the late stages of the US elections. And I think my impression is not wrong. Wikipedia is a good indicator of what the net community considers important. If you look at the article Falschmeldung you don’t find the term fake news as late as September 2016. The section false information in social networks was added just one month ago.

 

Now to something different. It seems that maybe, maybe there are going to be minimum prison terms for burglary. Finally, is has just been many, many years of ever increasing burglaries until politicians reacted. Maybe reacted. I don’t know if there is a loophole like in the case of attacks on cops, EMT and firemen.

 

This also has been a problem for many years and finally the politicians pretend they do something. Emphasis on pretend. It looks like there won’t be minimum penalties. The courts are merely given the option to impose harsher sentences if they consider the attack to be “severe”. Oh the irony. The maximum penalty is increased even though the courts usually don’t impose the current max penalty.

 

And last but not least the “fake youths” and the problems they cause. Never mind the millions of welfare. Fake youths often commit others crimes too: theft, robbery, burglary, drug trafficking is not unusual. How many politicians are screaming bloody murder because of this? Not our Interior Sec, he just finds the Greek actions to be “annoying”.

 

 

Maybe it’s just me but I more and more get the impression that the political class is only reacting quickly when they themselves are affected.

[Roman Alymov]

"Pro-EU think-tank says Russia and Syria could be orchestrating migrant sex attacks to swing the upcoming German elections" - well, what is next? Is anything left in this word still out of Putin's reach?

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4032432/Pro-EU-think-tank-says-Russia-Syria-orchestrating-migrant-sex-attacks-swing-upcoming-German-elections.html

[Markus Becker]

This "fake-news" obsession seems to me more like a good cover story to enact censorship of anything undesireable by our wise leadership. If someone reports something patentely faked, falsified or similar there have been laws for that for a long time.

 

And our media conglomerates always report only the clear unbiased reality of course and never make anything up to make a good story or to support an agenda.

 

Right and again right. The whole fuss about 'hate speech' is the same. Minister Maas has a government founded NGO run by a Stasi snitch do the work. Libel and incitement is already illegal. Why not set up a task force in the DoJ to go after incitement?

 

Because libel and incitement are defined by the law, hate speech isn’t. The number of legal complaints against hate speech has risen 350%, the number of investigations went from 500 to over 2,000 but 80% of the cases didn’t even make it to court and 7% ended in acquittals.

 

You can label lot’s of stuff that’s legal speech hate speech to suppress it.

[Markus Becker]

"Pro-EU think-tank says Russia and Syria could be orchestrating migrant sex attacks to swing the upcoming German elections" - well, what is next? Is anything left in this word still out of Putin's reach?

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4032432/Pro-EU-think-tank-says-Russia-Syria-orchestrating-migrant-sex-attacks-swing-upcoming-German-elections.html

 

Are you Sir questioning the might of Putin?

[Jeff]

 

 

This "fake-news" obsession seems to me more like a good cover story to enact censorship of anything undesireable by our wise leadership.

 

B-I-N-G-O

 

 

Fake News is a real issue. Why would all the mainstream media suddenly run constant stories with that totally uncoordinated narrative if it was not so? It is not like the "journalists" from these outlets have been exposed in the past to be coordinating their stories narratives via exclusive internet based web groups.

 

 

The NYT is vacating 8 floors of their own building and renting them out to save money. As the legacy media wither and die, they are taking a death grip on what remains.

[Jeff]

 

"Pro-EU think-tank says Russia and Syria could be orchestrating migrant sex attacks to swing the upcoming German elections" - well, what is next? Is anything left in this word still out of Putin's reach?

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4032432/Pro-EU-think-tank-says-Russia-Syria-orchestrating-migrant-sex-attacks-swing-upcoming-German-elections.html

 

Are you Sir questioning the might of Putin?

 

 

Well played, sir!

[Roman Alymov]

 

"Pro-EU think-tank says Russia and Syria could be orchestrating migrant sex attacks to swing the upcoming German elections" - well, what is next? Is anything left in this word still out of Putin's reach?

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4032432/Pro-EU-think-tank-says-Russia-Syria-orchestrating-migrant-sex-attacks-swing-upcoming-German-elections.html

 

Are you Sir questioning the might of Putin?

 

I am sure next claim of free media would be that Putin is doing all rapes personally (may be sometimes with assistance of Trump)

[Mike Steele]

 

 

"Pro-EU think-tank says Russia and Syria could be orchestrating migrant sex attacks to swing the upcoming German elections" - well, what is next? Is anything left in this word still out of Putin's reach?

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4032432/Pro-EU-think-tank-says-Russia-Syria-orchestrating-migrant-sex-attacks-swing-upcoming-German-elections.html

 

Are you Sir questioning the might of Putin?

 

I am sure next claim of free media would be that Putin is doing all rapes personally (may be sometimes with assistance of Trump)

 

:D

[Markus Becker]

 

 

I am sure next claim of free media would be that Putin is doing all rapes personally (may be sometimes with assistance of Trump)

 

I'm sure Putin is manly enough to do everybody himself.

 

Jokes aside, the absurd sounding Daily Mail article is not fake news. He actually implied the KGB would make refugees in their pay rape and rob.

Edited December 18, 2016 by Markus Becker

[cbo]

 

 

"Pro-EU think-tank says Russia and Syria could be orchestrating migrant sex attacks to swing the upcoming German elections" - well, what is next? Is anything left in this word still out of Putin's reach?

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4032432/Pro-EU-think-tank-says-Russia-Syria-orchestrating-migrant-sex-attacks-swing-upcoming-German-elections.html

 

Are you Sir questioning the might of Putin?

 

I am sure next claim of free media would be that Putin is doing all rapes personally (may be sometimes with assistance of Trump)

 

 

Well, he has been capable of rodgering 140 million Russians for years, so I believe he could do the job

[BansheeOne]

Minister Maas has a government founded NGO run by a Stasi snitch do the work. Libel and incitement is already illegal. Why not set up a task force in the DoJ to go after incitement?

 

Okay, this is the second time I have no clue what you mean. That MOJ Task Force exists since September 2015, headed by Justice State Secretary Gerd Billen and including representatives from Facebook and other major social media, industry watchdog institutions and some NGOs (yeah, this includes the Amadeu Antonio Foundation which tends to get on my nerves, too; but in fairness to Anetta Kahane, she quit as a Stasi informer, broke with the DDR, took the consequences and talked openly if a little late about it, and, being Jewish, she has been pointing out that neo-Nazism and anti-Semitism existed in the DDR, too); the task being implementation of the voluntary government-industry accord from the same month that providers should delete "a major part" of content violating German libel and incitement laws within 24 hours after a complaint with due checks. Which has worked well or not according to statements of different politicians feeling different political needs at different times; the latest initiative is based upon the claim that it still doesn't, and that providers need more legal regulation and the attendant fines for failure to improve compliance.

 

Hence the core point of making them install 24/365 points of contact for user complaints and threatening up to 500,000 Euro in fines. A controversial suggestion is giving the aggrieved party the right of reply, to be spread with the same range as an original wrong depiction. This is essentially applying press law to social media and is being criticized by conventional media publishers, since they see it as elevating the competition to their own status; they state that a social media provider is not more than a telecommunications company, which is also not responsible for what people say over its phone lines or in e-mails. Of course anybody running a German blog or internet board is already legally responsible for compliance of comments to relevant laws, since unlike private conversations they are very much in the public realm; the difficulty for owners being to interpret the law as a private person. As you note, only a fraction of complaints actually results in legal consequences, after much longer consideration than 24 hours; so an owner can reasonably expect not to run into trouble if he doesn't delete content and thus avoids facing the inevitable howls of "censorship!" by users.

 

It certainly shows that laws and government action to uphold them are nowhere near as stifling as claimed by some. Major social media get more attention and more pressure from either side of course, with the attendant PR issues; though that's not a German peculiarity. Back in July the relatives of Palestinian terror victims brought a one-billion dollar lawsuit against Facebook in the US for providing a propaganda platform for Hamas enabling concrete violence, for example. Facebook has also shown it can yield to public pressure quickly, like when they removed a post entitled "Jews among us" and listing the addresses of 70 Jewish institutions and businesses in Berlin on this year's Kristallnacht anniversary, acting inside 24 hours after initially giving the standard reply to complaints that this was not violating community rules. Then again, the suits brought against Facebook Germany by a busybody lawyer for allowing libelious and inciting content in October 2015 led nowhere.

 

Which comes back to the core conflict of international corporations operating on the world wide web according to the legal understanding of their home country, and local understandings of other countries. So no, this is not about outlawing more content, just about applying existing libel and incitement laws to the quick-moving reality of social media. "Hate speech" is just another Americanism entering the German language because the issue gets a new spin, often US-related; same as "fake news". The latter term did indeed emerge only during the American campaign, but was a topic going back at least to the proliferation of hoax refugee rape reports last summer; like "hate speech" on the net, it was a big thing only for the usual activists and a select few having to deal with it in an official capacity before that.

 

That the issue is quite real and used in a targeted way, by state actors, became very obvious for anybody willing to see in the Berlin "Lisa" case in January this year, which was a textbook information warfare operation that really shook up political actors and has been referenced ever since. There has been a myriad of less high-profile examples since, like the misreporting on the introduction of women-only train compartments by the Mitteldeutsche Regionalbahn in March, but we should really thank Sergey Lavrov for hitching his waggon to a case that exposed the mechanism so clearly (and BTW, the incitement case against the Russian TV journalist who "broke" it, including the portrayal of an NPD demonstration as a spontaneous protest by Russian-Germans, was again abated).

 

Nothing of the above is to say that the current initiative is going to improve anything, or is even anything but a political kneejerk. There is of course a history of similar moves of questionable effect and constitutionality against groups the state felt threatened by, from the public service ban on leftists in 1972 during the heyday of the RAF to the proposed veiling ban for Muslim women that has been debated for some time and recently called for by the CDU convention. But the fake news thing is not made up, it's an actual problem, and it's actively being used in the latest installment of the fight between authoritarianism and Western liberal democracy that has been going on at least since the latter started to shape Europe in earnest after WW I.