On the way Posted April 3 Share Posted April 3 Finished watching Masters of the Air (twice). LOL. I was curious. The bomber formations were supposed to keep as tight a formation as possible. When under attack by Luftwaffe fighters, and returning fire, I would think there was a high chance of gunners hitting other bombers in their formation. Are there any stats on losses suffered this way? Were gunners trained to hold fire when enemy planes fly through their formation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardaukar Posted April 3 Share Posted April 3 Definitely lots of friendly fire. "Theoretically" gunners had their arcs...in practice and in heat of combat...yea, right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Galbraith Posted April 3 Share Posted April 3 There was at least one book (and im not saying I believe it because it was full of improbably tall tales) that claims one gunner went mad and opened fire on other bombers, under the erroneous believe they were enemy fighters. Whether that was ever true or not, friendly fire in small boxes was inevitable. Im not aware there is any evidence any were brought down in this way of course, but Id be surprised if there wasnt anyone killed or at least wounded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seahawk Posted April 3 Share Posted April 3 How would you know if hit by 12,7mm US round or a German 13mm? And probably nobody made a forensic investigation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Galbraith Posted April 3 Share Posted April 3 Yes, exactly. And lets be fair to the Army Air Corp, nobody is going to write back to a mother and say 'Gee, bad luck, your son had his head blown off from a US .50'. If you play the old B17 game, yes, usually you dont hit other aircraft. But logic dicates teh more you stacked up formations, and with ballistics being what they are, it must have happened to someone. Bombs too of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardaukar Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 On 4/3/2024 at 11:46 AM, Stuart Galbraith said: Yes, exactly. And lets be fair to the Army Air Corp, nobody is going to write back to a mother and say 'Gee, bad luck, your son had his head blown off from a US .50'. If you play the old B17 game, yes, usually you dont hit other aircraft. But logic dicates teh more you stacked up formations, and with ballistics being what they are, it must have happened to someone. Bombs too of course. There also were quite a few instances when B-17s were hit by bombs dropped by other B-17s.. Bad day in office. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shep854 Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 (edited) In this video by 'US Bombers in WWII', stats are shown at 4:40 that indicate more damage by cartridge cases and links than by friendly fire! This channel is a great companion to the TV series. Edited April 4 by shep854 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus Becker Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 On 4/3/2024 at 10:43 AM, seahawk said: How would you know if hit by 12,7mm US round or a German 13mm? And probably nobody made a forensic investigation. Sounds just like the thing the US would do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichTO90 Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 If you do the math from the USAAF report: January 1944 - 55 of 200 small caliber/MG strikes were friendly fire. February 1944 - 68 of 228 March 1944 - 45 of 173 April 1944 - 41 of 226 May 1944 - 24 of 275 Total - 233 of 1,100, so about 21.2% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Galbraith Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 Wow, that's surprisingly high. And of course it doesn't count aircraft subsequently lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On the way Posted April 4 Author Share Posted April 4 On 4/3/2024 at 12:10 AM, Sardaukar said: Definitely lots of friendly fire. "Theoretically" gunners had their arcs...in practice and in heat of combat...yea, right. I thought so too. Those pics and old film u see of damaged B-17 and B-24, some of that damage could be caused by their own comrades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On the way Posted April 4 Author Share Posted April 4 On 4/3/2024 at 1:20 AM, Stuart Galbraith said: There was at least one book (and im not saying I believe it because it was full of improbably tall tales) that claims one gunner went mad and opened fire on other bombers, under the erroneous believe they were enemy fighters. Whether that was ever true or not, friendly fire in small boxes was inevitable. Im not aware there is any evidence any were brought down in this way of course, but Id be surprised if there wasnt anyone killed or at least wounded. Yeah, and even if there were killed and wounded by friendly fire, it would have been bad publicity to make it known. Morale was already bad enough in outfits like the 100th Bomb Group, without stories of their own guys shooting each other up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On the way Posted April 4 Author Share Posted April 4 (edited) On 4/3/2024 at 1:43 AM, seahawk said: How would you know if hit by 12,7mm US round or a German 13mm? And probably nobody made a forensic investigation. That is easy. If u are digging 0.5in slugs out of your B-17 bulkhead, pilot seats, dead bodies of your crew, etc. u sure as hell knew u weren't shot at by German fighters or P-51s. Edited April 6 by On the way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On the way Posted April 4 Author Share Posted April 4 5 hours ago, RichTO90 said: If you do the math from the USAAF report: January 1944 - 55 of 200 small caliber/MG strikes were friendly fire. February 1944 - 68 of 228 March 1944 - 45 of 173 April 1944 - 41 of 226 May 1944 - 24 of 275 Total - 233 of 1,100, so about 21.2% Yeah that is really high. At this rate, it's almost inevitable that some B-17 losses were mainly caused by friendly fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R011 Posted April 5 Share Posted April 5 41 minutes ago, On the way said: That is easy. If u are digging 0.5in slugs out of your B-17 bulkhead, pilot seats, dead bodies of your crew, etc. u sure as hell knew u weren't shot at by German fighters of P-51s. As someone earlier pointed out, how easy is it to tell at a glance if a bullet is an American .50 or a German 13 mm? Would they bother to do any forensics? Would they want to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichTO90 Posted April 5 Share Posted April 5 3 hours ago, On the way said: Yeah that is really high. At this rate, it's almost inevitable that some B-17 losses were mainly caused by friendly fire. I doubt it. It is the same situation as with the old OR conundrum of where to armor aircraft based upon the damage on those that came back. 😂 Seriously, the Germans discovered with good reason that it was nigh impossible to down a B-17 with rifle caliber rounds and the .50 caliber and 13mm were not much more effective. I suspect most of those lost were hit by multiple 20mm, one or two 30mm, or single 88mm strikes. The firendly fire was probably just an embarrassing irritant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardaukar Posted April 5 Share Posted April 5 6 hours ago, R011 said: As someone earlier pointed out, how easy is it to tell at a glance if a bullet is an American .50 or a German 13 mm? Would they bother to do any forensics? Would they want to? Friendly fire is not that friendly... And As you said, would they want to? Easier for families not to know that their son was done for by his buddies.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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