ink Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Trying to blame it on :Maidan fascists kinda ignores what happened BEFORE molotovs started to fly. For months. What happened before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bojan Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 ...kinda ignores what happened BEFORE molotovs started to fly. For months.Molotovs flew from a day one of protests, and were quite organized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLAH Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 BMP-2 burning; probably the broken down #240 from yesterday (I'm pretty sure the locals did it): Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 ...kinda ignores what happened BEFORE molotovs started to fly. For months.Molotovs flew from a day one of protests, and were quite organized. Protests started on November 21st. I've not been able to find any mention of molotov cocktail use prior to 11/30. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 This does not prevent people from referring to them that way and you know it. It does not make them racists IMHO. But still, coming back to the topic, I do not see how sharing dislike to “blacks” could make Ukrainian Russians (or pro-Russians) agree to live in one state with this nice Western-Ukrainian kids chanting “Hang the Russians”. Note the date - 27 Nov 2013, long before any conflict with Russia. Slogans are “Ukraine is Europe", "Yes to EU”, “Student for Europe” and… “Hang the Russians”. If Europe want to have this new citizens – let them take them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=OxssR_H7I_k Just FYI - the word "Russian" that Roman translates in the "Hang the Russians" refers not to Russian ethnics, but rather to Russian Federation citizens. Unlike English, Ukrainian uses separate words for each. This is expression of opposition to Russia and Russian policies, not Russian people as ethnicity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ink Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Just FYI - the word "Russian" that Roman translates in the "Hang the Russians" refers not to Russian ethnics, but rather to Russian Federation citizens. Unlike English, Ukrainian uses separate words for each. This is expression of opposition to Russia and Russian policies, not Russian people as ethnicity. Thanks for clarifying that. I'm sure Russian speakers in the Ukraine have now been sufficiently reassured and will take down the barricades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Alymov Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Just FYI - the word "Russian" that Roman translates in the "Hang the Russians" refers not to Russian ethnics, but rather to Russian Federation citizens. Unlike English, Ukrainian uses separate words for each. This is expression of opposition to Russia and Russian policies, not Russian people as ethnicity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moskal Moskal (москаль, moskalik, moskal’) is a historical term for Russians used in Ukraine until 20th century. It is also a family name predominantly found amongst residents of Eastern Europe. Moskal is also one of characters of a popular gathering in Ukraine Vertep.Nowadays, it is considered to be an ethnic slur in the countries of the former Soviet Union and Russian Empire. It is primarily used as a slur in Ukraine, Poland, and Belarus.[1][2] Similarly Ukrainian word zhyd (Ukrainian: жид) referring to a Jewish national since Middle Ages became a slur during the Soviet period as well.Moskal can be a type of ethnic slur with a mild negative connotation.a historic reference word for Russian, or literally Muscovite (a person from Moscovia or Muscovy) to differentiate them from other Eastern Slavs such as people from the White Rus' (Belarusians), the Red Rus' (Galicians), others; used in several Slavic languages: Belarusian, Polish and Ukrainian, today it is considered largely an archaism and an ethnic slur.[3]a soldier of the Russian Imperial Army (later the Soviet Army) in the Ukrainian language. People who were drafted to the Army were known to be taken into moskali (Ukrainian: у москалі). Because most of the Ukrainians after serving in the Army spoke often in Russian after demobilization, the word obtained its negative connotation and was applying to the person who lost his roots as well.[citation needed]Another ethnic slurs that refer to Russians, common in Ukraine, are katsap (uk:кацап) and vatnik. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistral Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 True, and if people in the east want to kick Kiev regime out, good for them. No divine right of rulers and all that. Anyone counting how many Ukrainians died under the Yanukovych regime and how many under the new one? And they are all Ukrainians right? Irrespectve of being Russian speakers or not, right? So no ones knows which regime killed more Ukrainians which were opposed to it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Alymov Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 South Ossetia volunteers in Donetsk greeting WWII veteranshttp://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=39vKSrwqFJg Note the same flag on the second track during yesterday disarmament of National Guard unit http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=5cau9Gju-mw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim the Tank Nut Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Hitler's Germany or Stalin's Soviet Union.Modern comms make the chaos seem worse than it really is because our frame of reference is skewed. Can you imagine the "newsfeeds" from Leningrad or Bataan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Alymov Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Modern comms make the chaos seem worse than it really is because our frame of reference is skewed. Tim, you are right - media tend to take limited frame and portray it as whole picture. The same apply to Maidan events - most Westerners believe it was huge protest of all Ukrainian nation, but in reality few blocks away from Maidan Kiev was functioning as usual, with people going for "recreational rioting" on weekends..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BansheeOne Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Same as the actions by the separatists in fact, who occupied just a couple public buildings in some cities, rather than the farspread insurgency you would infer from media reports (on both sides actually). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Alymov Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Same as the actions by the separatists in fact, who occupied just a couple public buildings in some cities, rather than the farspread insurgency you would infer from media reports (on both sides actually).This is exactly like previous Russian Civil War was like - 1% of population actively fighting, 99% waiting for the outcome. Will see how referendum would work - reportedly about 15 000 will be working in election committees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenn239 Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 (edited) Id prefer both of them to have been left as they were. Is that such a tall order to expect in Europe the 21st Century? We don't have a time machine to go back to December 2013 and ward off the crisis with preventative diplomancy, and wishful thinking is not a tactic to solve civil wars. Everything you've said so far gives me the impression that you want to fight Putin to the last Ukrainian and Crimean. Here's the options - Option 1 - The Russian army shall enter Eastern Ukraine under some pretense (either Putin's or the UN's) and quell the violence. The cost to the EU is that Eastern Ukraine will become semi-autonomous behind the shield of Russian army. If Putin's decision to enter Ukraine is a unilateral one, then there will be severe repercussions to Russia-western relations that could snowball unpredictably in future issues, (Iranian nuclear power, Israeli security, China, etc). Option 2 - The Russian army does not enter Ukraine, and the civil insurection in Ukraine will continue unfettered. As the Ukrainian army is hopeless, it most likely escalates into civil war. Those are the choices we have. You want option 2, right? You would prefer to risk civil war in Ukraine rather than allow the Russian army to bring under control the violence you strongly suspect the Russians themselves caused, correct? My concern with Option 2 is that I think Ukraine and Europe are better to go for some comprimise US-Russian political solution at Kiev's expense than risk a civil war that could have unintended consequences for Europe. The Arab Spring says once insurgency fighting is underway, it can be very hard to stop it and very hard to contain it from spreading. Now, I realise that Munich in 1938 didn't have to worry about terrorists spreading insurgencies in Eastern Europe, but as you yourself just said, this is the 21st Century so we better start thinking about the dangers of it, rather than dwelling on paranoid fears of how it worked in the past. You know that after 10 years up against the US military, that some of the best insurgency fighters in the world are radical Islamic terrorists. And one doesn't have to think very hard to worry about the possibility that the lack of equipment and training in the Russian insurgency in the east might present an opportunity for terrorists to establish a prescence in Ukraine. Edited May 10, 2014 by glenn239 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noble713 Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Was reading another rather inflammatory article on ZeroHedge and this image made me LOL: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bojan Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 (edited) ...Protests started on November 21st. I've not been able to find any mention of molotov cocktail use prior to 11/30. I am 99% sure I have seen it (and not just single one) in 2nd or 3rd day of protests on video somewhere on LJ. Edited May 10, 2014 by bojan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 (edited) Just FYI - the word "Russian" that Roman translates in the "Hang the Russians" refers not to Russian ethnics, but rather to Russian Federation citizens. Unlike English, Ukrainian uses separate words for each. This is expression of opposition to Russia and Russian policies, not Russian people as ethnicity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moskal Moskal (москаль, moskalik, moskal’) is a historical term for Russians used in Ukraine until 20th century. It is also a family name predominantly found amongst residents of Eastern Europe. Moskal is also one of characters of a popular gathering in Ukraine Vertep.Nowadays, it is considered to be an ethnic slur in the countries of the former Soviet Union and Russian Empire. It is primarily used as a slur in Ukraine, Poland, and Belarus.[1][2] Similarly Ukrainian word zhyd (Ukrainian: жид) referring to a Jewish national since Middle Ages became a slur during the Soviet period as well.Moskal can be a type of ethnic slur with a mild negative connotation.a historic reference word for Russian, or literally Muscovite (a person from Moscovia or Muscovy) to differentiate them from other Eastern Slavs such as people from the White Rus' (Belarusians), the Red Rus' (Galicians), others; used in several Slavic languages: Belarusian, Polish and Ukrainian, today it is considered largely an archaism and an ethnic slur.[3]a soldier of the Russian Imperial Army (later the Soviet Army) in the Ukrainian language. People who were drafted to the Army were known to be taken into moskali (Ukrainian: у москалі). Because most of the Ukrainians after serving in the Army spoke often in Russian after demobilization, the word obtained its negative connotation and was applying to the person who lost his roots as well.[citation needed]Another ethnic slurs that refer to Russians, common in Ukraine, are katsap (uk:кацап) and vatnik. Let's read Ukrainian wiki entry for the same word, shall we? The word "moskal" in Ukraine is widely used to refer to inhabitants of Russian Federation. The word has neutral or slightly pejorative meaning. It should be noted that in modern Ukrainian, the word is not used as to denigrate or abuse, unlike the word "katsap". http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%8C Edited May 10, 2014 by Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Alymov Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Let's read Ukrainian wiki entry for the same word, shall we? The word "moskal" in Ukraine is widely used to refer to inhabitants of Russian Federation. The word has neutral or slightly pejorative meaning. It should be noted that in modern Ukrainian, the word is not used as to denigrate or abuse, unlike the word "katsap". http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%8C Shure we shall. Here are first two lines from your link:“Моска́ль — екзонім росіян, уживаний серед українців, білорусів та поляків. Також цей термін застосовують до військовиків або москвичів. Часто вживається як образлива та іронічна назва громадян Росії незалежно від їхнього етнічного походження чи місця проживання.”First sentence is, in my translation “moskal is exonym for Russians, common among Ukrainians, Belorussians and Poles”. Russians here ara, if you klick the term “Росіяни (рос. русскиеопис файлу) — східнослов'янський[1]етнос, основне населення Російської Федерації.” – ethnical Russians. Anyway, I can’t get your point – even imagining for a moment you are right, if someone in Europe chant “Hang the Jews” and then explain he does not mean ethnic Jews but citizens of Israel – will he get out with it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Alymov Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Thats interesting, I didnt know Japan and Kazakstan were in Nato. It is not Nato members but just bases. Still, to be consistent, this map is missing NATO base (well, not exactly base but logistics point) in Ulianovsk, Russia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Alymov Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Mariupol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr King Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imcyNGvbPGw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Alymov Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 Locals queuing up to vote on referendum in Mariupolhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pIP5Qj3DQ60 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Alymov Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 Mariupol on May,9, around local police HQ –locals trying to save local police from Ukrainian National Guard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noble713 Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 Mariupol Kudos to the reporters for correctly calling a BMP an IFV and not a tank. Also, proof civilians are clearly unfamiliar with the concept of the "low crawl". No wonder they get caught in crossfires... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bojan Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 On a military side of thing I realized something just now... note a total lack of trenches... Bloody amateurs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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