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All this people were promising a lot for Ukrainian East (including Russian as second state language equal to Ukrainian) – but all of them failed to deliver, with living standards falling in process. Do you really believe people would trust one more “representative”? They do not want another Ukrainian President - they want to get out of Ukraine.

 

Yanukovich did approve a law that gave Russian the status of a regional language. It was said that Euromaidan supporters wanted to overturn this law? was this ever confirmed?

 

Also, I don't understand Yanukovich flirting with the EU when his political party supports closer relations with Russia. To me this was a huge mistake because he raised expectations in one end of the country, and caused resentment in the other*.

 

Question somewhat off topic: Are there West-East tensions in Belarus? this country also has territory which was part of Poland for many years.

 

* Russia is the main client of Ukraine's eastern region. According to studies, the whole industrial region would collapse if they approach EU and lose Russia as a market. Ukraine's industry is obsolete (cars) or does not really have a place in the EU market (aircraft).

Edited by alejandro_
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Care to try and start your own little Maidan on the Red Square, then? A little bit of advice: Bring lots and lots of quality black tea. Tea is a valuable commodity in Russian prisons, especially at the more distant penitentiary detention camps in places with cold climate. Such as in Magadan.

Likewise, I'm sure your expertise would be deeply welcome by folks in Slavinsk. Would you need help with a packing list, or will you be coming up with your own?

 

Civilized conversation 101.

You don't wish upon(or boast having taken part in bringing to) your conversation partner the following things(list not complete):

Rape of his female relatives and in-laws; bad things happening in his country, such as war, genocide, bubonic plague or Arab springs.

Especially if said things are currently a wee bit too close for comfort already.

 

Look, man, it's just the same as me wishing him Prague Spring 2.0 Bukharest Edition to implant his beloved Russian Boot in his face forever. Get it?

 

In fact when first rulers of recently-united Rus back in 900th where looking for state religion to replace old pagan gods – there were three options considered: Islam (from Iran region), Judaism (from Khazar kaganat right next door to Kiev) and Christianity from Greeks\Byzantine. Islam was turned down because of forbidding alcohol, Judaism – because of forbidding pork, and Christianity was finally accepted after some struggle (still it is nice game of mind to imagine Judaism delegates more flexible back then -resulting in Israel stretching from Poland to Alaska )

Keeping the pagan gods would be a far more interesting perspective. Imagine Hitler being strapped of his Ahnenerbe spiritual mumbo-jumbo support for his homicidal plans by his enemies being even MORE Aryan than himself :D

 

Yeah, I was a little amused that Savantu just assumed that if the violence spreads, it will spread into Russia - one thing about the let's have a war crowd, you can't fault them on their incorrigible optimism on outcomes in the face of all current experience. The Vegas money would have to be on the Balkans, I would think.

 

Hard to call it optimism, innit. Especially if one remembers what the last war with a major power participating to happen in Europe - Kosovo - brought the Europeans. Like, Euro plummeting to the ground to only recover some ten years later, refugees, Kosovo-Albanian drug-running or organ-selling gangs, you name it.

 

 

- What a rotored deathtrap!

- Shut up, Sparkov!

What aerial vehicle would then be boxy(and old) enough to qualify as a true AeroGavin? There, I got it: AN-2! :D

 

As has been mentioned here several times, Ukrainian army is really in poor shape. Lack of training is probably the most important, lack of equipment is a close 2nd. MoD Ukraine has been soliciting funds from the citizenry via SMS donations, and I think about $9 million has been collected so far. Other folks are talking matters in their own hands...I've been tracking this gentlemen for the last few weeks - he has been acting on his own to collect money and deliver body armor to local combat units. In the last month, he has gathered enough to buy over 600 sets of body armor. He inspired me so much that I've decided to help as well - bought about 40 surplus chest rigs (thank you, Ex-mod.com :) ) which are on the way to Ukraine, plus 6 body armor plates. I hope they won't be used ... but if it comes to that - better to have and not want, than want and not have.

Are there any vids of him handing over the armor to units actually on the front line? If not, I suppose your used armor will go the way of the MRE in Ukraine...

 

 

 

You can easily rig PKM on bow and probably coax positions.

 

Or a Vasilek auto-mortar on top of turret. :)

 

 

Man, there's lots of tough guys on Russian forums.

 

So tough that I bet 0% cross the border to help out their "comrades".

 

Wait up. Ukraine has some time ago banned male Russian citizens aged 16-60 from crossing border into the country. And the border openings in Lugansk Oblast are just two days old, unconfirmed rumors.

Edited by Blunt Eversmoke
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And another thing to remember – Ukrainian Presidential elections were soon to come even before Maidan, so why Maidan people not wait for few more month to re-elect Yanukovich, but preferred to ruin the country?

 

 

IIRC some beatings, kidnappings and murders had some role to play in it.

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Maybe they got tired of being hauled off to be murdered or jailed improperly. Ukrainians can be funny like that I gather.

 

To stop being oppressed, Maidan people only need to board subway right from the square and go home. Yanukovich was both weak and kleptocratic President, but he definitely was not a kind of bloody oppressive dictator – at least not more than previous Presidents (remember Gongadze case back in 2000). There was no need to overthrow him right now.

More interested question is why Western politicians were so frequent to Maidan – they were also oppressed by Yanukovich?

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If you have people hauled off to be murdered or Jailed illegally, you cant help but think it takes a remarkable degree of faith in the electoral system to think the person doing it is going to be displaced.

 

You can now add burned alive to the list.

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Does that stop the corruption? And what happened to the right to voicing your own opinion? We endorse that right here on the internet. Why should anyone be oppressed for doing the same thing in the street, because as far as I can tell the worst violence occurred when Yanukovych tried to do that that. Even Russia today showed footage of people being being beaten up (whilst lying on the ground) after doing nothing more violent than carrying billboards.

 

If thats toleration of free speech, then its not as I understand it. Maybe it passes the Putin test, but not mine.

 

No, it does not – equally corruption can’t be stopped by replacing one set of oligarchs with another set of oligarchs and giving them even greater powers, that is what we see as a result of Maidan. Now with election coming Ukrainian people again face nice choice between oligarch and corrupt ex-prime minister. Was riot police actions overreaction – is hard question (taking into account international experience), but starting civil war is definitely worthier then it – and de-facto Maidan was the first action of Ukrainian Civil War. What about freedom of speech – it have nothing to do with it (it is about “freedom to carry on unauthorized public protest”). I do not think any unauthorized public protest is to be dispersed by police, but if police do this – it is not something uncommon.

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And why did the Russian Government not express as much concern for them when the maidan protesters were being shot as they have over Ethnic Russians?

Russian Government was expressing concerns about Maidan events right from the beginning (not because Russian Gov. is so good and humane, but because this kind of stuff always end up in bad way and Russia do not need it at our border). What was Russian Government NOT doing was supporting one of the sides in conflict (despite all Western media portraying Yanukovich as “pro-Russian”, he definitely was not – he always acted in own interests). West was.

 

 

Protest for links to EU = Fascists.

 

How must we call this nice people?

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All this people were promising a lot for Ukrainian East (including Russian as second state language equal to Ukrainian) – but all of them failed to deliver, with living standards falling in process. Do you really believe people would trust one more “representative”? They do not want another Ukrainian President - they want to get out of Ukraine.

 

Yanukovich did approve a law that gave Russian the status of a regional language. It was said that Euromaidan supporters wanted to overturn this law? was this ever confirmed?

 

Also, I don't understand Yanukovich flirting with the EU when his political party supports closer relations with Russia. To me this was a huge mistake because he raised expectations in one end of the country, and caused resentment in the other*.

 

Question somewhat off topic: Are there West-East tensions in Belarus? this country also has territory which was part of Poland for many years.

 

* Russia is the main client of Ukraine's eastern region. According to studies, the whole industrial region would collapse if they approach EU and lose Russia as a market. Ukraine's industry is obsolete (cars) or does not really have a place in the EU market (aircraft).

 

Abolishing the official status of Russian was proposed, but not effected. Russian can still be used for official purposes.

 

Yanukovich wanted better terms from Russia. Playing off the EU against it was an obvious negotiating ploy.

 

Over 40% of Russia's imports come from the EU. Why would Ukraine lose the Russian market if it cosied up to the EU? Only if Russia shut it out from spite, regardless of the cost to Russians.

Edited by swerve
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Maybe they got tired of being hauled off to be murdered or jailed improperly. Ukrainians can be funny like that I gather.

 

To stop being oppressed, Maidan people only need to board subway right from the square and go home. Yanukovich was both weak and kleptocratic President, but he definitely was not a kind of bloody oppressive dictator – at least not more than previous Presidents (remember Gongadze case back in 2000). There was no need to overthrow him right now.

More interested question is why Western politicians were so frequent to Maidan – they were also oppressed by Yanukovich?

 

Perhaps not by the very low standards of Russia, but by British standards, Yanukovich should have been in prison, not president, & there was every reason to overthrow him. Perhaps a lot of Ukrainians want something better than yet another thief. Maybe that's all they'll get, but each time one is overthrown, it sends a message to his successor not to go too far.

 

You can't just 'board the subway ... and go home' to stop being oppressed when you get beaten up, or even murdered, for asking questions about the businesses owned by the president's son & his friends. Or when a tax inspector pisses in your shop & tells you that he can do it, because he's an official - & when you complain your business is ruined by the state, proving him right. And so on, & so on. You may think this sort of thing is not worth rebelling against, but here, the whole country would unite against it.

Edited by swerve
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Russian Government was expressing concerns about Maidan events right from the beginning (not because Russian Gov. is so good and humane, but because this kind of stuff always end up in bad way and Russia do not need it at our border)

 

 

That's right, nothing should disturb the 140% percent legitimacy of Putin and Medvedev, the peace and tranqulity of the Russian democracy, let alone protests by some hotheads for bogus things like clear elections in Moscow, two and a half years back.

Edited by Oddball31
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Abolishing the official status of Russian was proposed, but not effected. Russian can still be used for official purposes.

 

It was approved by Rada as far as I remember, in the first day after Yanukovich, but blocked by interim PM or so. Still, the very attempt to do this was enough.

 

 

Over 40% of Russia's imports come from the EU. Why would Ukraine lose the Russian market if it cosied up to the EU? Only if Russia shut it out from spite, regardless of the cost to Russians.

 

The idea was, as far as I remember, that Ukrainian exports to Russia would be taxed equally to exports from EU (that sounds fair in case of Ukraine siding with EU) - and it would finish what is left of Ukrainian industry. It is unrealistic to expect Russia continuing with trade benefits for the state acting against Russian interests – and this treaty was against Russia interests.

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Perhaps not by the very low standards of Russia, but by British standards, Yanukovich should have been in prison, not president, & there was every reason to overthrow him. Perhaps a lot of Ukrainians want something better than yet another thief. Maybe that's all they'll get, but each time one is overthrown, it sends a message to his successor not to go too far.

 

I think by British standards each and every of current Ukrainian and Russian political and business elite deserve to go to jail – including those guys in Kiev whom your government support now, and all this guys buying yachts&luxury in London. So if you really would like to help Russia, Ukraine, Nigeria, China etc. in battling corruption and building democracy – you could do it by putting all this corrupt officials to where they deserve to be, not providing them safe haven.By the way Russia have to be grateful for current sanctions imposed on at least some of oligarchs – but it is still only few.

 

 

You can't just 'board the subway ... and go home' to stop being oppressed when you get beaten up, or even murdered, for asking questions about the businesses owned by the president's son & his friends. Or when a tax inspector pisses in your shop & tells you that he can do it, because he's an official - & when you complain your business is ruined by the state, proving him right. And so on, & so on. You may think this sort of thing is not worth rebelling against, but here, the whole country would unite against it.

 

 

All this nasty stuff started long before Yanukovich – and is still there. Attempt to stop crime by another crime failed, and it was predictable.

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Perhaps not by the very low standards of Russia, but by British standards, Yanukovich should have been in prison, not president, & there was every reason to overthrow him. Perhaps a lot of Ukrainians want something better than yet another thief. Maybe that's all they'll get, but each time one is overthrown, it sends a message to his successor not to go too far.

 

I think by British standards each and every of current Ukrainian and Russian political and business elite deserve to go to jail – including those guys in Kiev whom your government support now, and all this guys buying yachts&luxury in London. So if you really would like to help Russia, Ukraine, Nigeria, China etc. in battling corruption and building democracy – you could do it by putting all this corrupt officials to where they deserve to be, not providing them safe haven.By the way Russia have to be grateful for current sanctions imposed on at least some of oligarchs – but it is still only few.

 

 

You can't just 'board the subway ... and go home' to stop being oppressed when you get beaten up, or even murdered, for asking questions about the businesses owned by the president's son & his friends. Or when a tax inspector pisses in your shop & tells you that he can do it, because he's an official - & when you complain your business is ruined by the state, proving him right. And so on, & so on. You may think this sort of thing is not worth rebelling against, but here, the whole country would unite against it.

 

 

All this nasty stuff started long before Yanukovich – and is still there. Attempt to stop crime by another crime failed, and it was predictable.

 

You really don't get it, do you?

 

When you accept the criminality, & shrug it off with "they're all as bad", you've given in to oppression. Every time you kick out a criminal, you discourage the others. Keep doing it, & eventually you'll end up with honest politicians.

 

Overthrowing a ruler by legal means can only be done in an environment of legality, where the courts & the law enforcement bodies mostly act to enforce the laws. Overthrowing a ruler who is abusing his power, & has corrupted the courts & police, & who therefore can not be got rid of legally, is not a crime. It's necessary.

 

There is no divine right of rulers, however they get into power. A ruler may be elected freely & fairly, but still be illegitimate, if in power he acts wrongly.

Edited by swerve
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. Every time you kick out a criminal, you discourage the others. Keep doing it, & eventually you'll end up with honest politicians.

 

If one group of criminals kick out another group of criminals - is it discouraging other criminals from being criminals? Unfortunately it is only discouraging criminals from being weak and indecisive. Yanukovich not attempted to use army against own people – current Kiev officials do it now. We passed through it: GKChP leaders failed to fire at own people supporting Yeltsin in 1991 – but two years later in 1993 Yeltsin fired tanks at his political rivals.

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What if Russian speakers honestly believe that they will not get a fair treatment with the new regime, disregard the real Russian meddling at the moment. Can they then use force to remove said regime or try to limit its influence or not?

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Oh, the irony of a Russian trying to lecture a Brit on the concept of legitibamate government.

 

When russia has gone 100 years without a bloody revolution, maybe you can lecture the west on legitimate government.

 

Mistral, given how my Ukrainian friend explains that Ukrainian is a second language in Ukraine, I'm not certain how the Russians speakers expect to not get a fair shake.

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Oh, the irony of a Russian trying to lecture a Brit on the concept of legitibamate government.

 

When russia has gone 100 years without a bloody revolution, maybe you can lecture the west on legitimate government.

 

I think real irony here is when Brit convincing Rus that bloody revolution is in fact legitimate way to deal with politicians :)

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To you, where does the power originate Roman? The people or the state?

 

 

 

Simple answer that explains someone's concepts of government in a nutshell.

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To you, where does the power originate Roman? The people or the state?

 

 

 

Simple answer that explains someone's concepts of government in a nutshell.

Right question wrongly asked. 1) The state, 2) a small part of radicalized population backed and ruled by oligarchate and foreign money, or 3) the WHOLE people?

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To you, where does the power originate Roman? The people or the state?

 

You Brits do not value the luxury of living on the island. Through all Russian history every time when people were exercising their power to create more suitable “government” – result was not better government but outside power using disorder to impose their rule (sometimes in cooperation with some local fractions), with huge cost in lives. So our choice is evolution, not revolution (still, revolutions happen anyway – it is in human nature to behave in unwise way)

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