urbanoid Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 33 minutes ago, Yama said: Back in the day, the West (and I suppose, "the East" as well) was also making enough babies who grew up as adults who would take care of all the menial jobs. Now, there are much less babies and when they grow up, they often are not interested doing those jobs anymore. Of course, we could just automate the crap out of everything, and pay enough to make those unattractive jobs attractive for native population. And then cost of everyday goods and services would be increased 50%, and surprisingly, when faced with the choices "everything costs 50% more" and "bit more people around with different skin colour", Average Joe will vote for the latter. Japan and Worst Korea seem to be managing despite shrinking population. The thing with the current economic model is that it can absorb pretty much any number of people. A million Ukrainians worked here before the war and 'the economy' was still asking for more. Since then we had several hundred thousand of Belarusians coming AND Ukrainian refugees (who mostly work) AND we have issued 200k+ of worker visas on top of that. What is 'the economy' doing? That's right, still asking for more. Though to be honest we're kinda lucky that it's mostly the Ukrainians and Belarusians coming to work and live here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ink Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 5 minutes ago, Roman Alymov said: As for me, it is a bit simplistic. First of all, money have lost the meaning of equivalent of human labor now (and renamed "liquidity", produced as commodity in unlimited volume) Second, Western "poor" are now mostly living deeply in debt, no way to steal from them - everything is allready taken for years ahead. There are actually three sources to "steal" money in billions and trillions now 1) From hardworking population of countries where saving is still dominant concept (their labor is de-facto taken for free in exchange for promises that will newer be fullfilled) 2) From natural resources exporters (not labor, but resources taken for free - as it was in case of Russia) 3) From future generations of "first world" countries Nah, they have their ways. Quantative easing was just a way to say devaluing the worth of money... So people's wages and pensions were literally worth less. That's why nobody can afford a house right now. Well, one of the reasons. The there was COVID. Even if we ignore the massive and blatant corruption, the governments of Europe (but the UK especially) borrowed shit tons of money and more or less just straight up gave it to the rich. That debt is gonna get paid by people's taxes. And guess who doesn't pay taxes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Alymov Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 9 minutes ago, urbanoid said: If it was happening there and not here, it was due to Soviet occupation of our countries, which robbed us of decades of actual prosperity and economic growth. Take a look at Greece islands, or south Italy, some regions of Spain and Portugal, or even Turkey and imagine removing all that was constructed over last 30 years, after USSR collapsed and fruits of this collapse taken all across "free world". What makes you believe your place was to have more actual prosperity and economic growth thein this (perfectly NATO) places? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ink Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 1 minute ago, urbanoid said: Japan and Worst Korea seem to be managing despite shrinking population. Yeah, I also don't think it's the end of the world. 1 minute ago, urbanoid said: The thing with the current economic model is that it can absorb pretty much any number of people. A million Ukrainians worked here before the war and 'the economy' was still asking for more. Since then we had several hundred thousand of Belarusians coming AND Ukrainian refugees (who mostly work) AND we have issued 200k+ of worker visas on top of that. What is 'the economy' doing? That's right, still asking for more. Can't remember the Romans ever saying no to more slaves. But, of course, the Ukrainians and Belarussians aren't slaves in the same way. I'm just drawing a fun historical parallel to illustrate that it isn't the Ukrainians who are going to get rich from their low labour costs. 1 minute ago, urbanoid said: Though to be honest we're kinda lucky that it's mostly the Ukrainians and Belarusians coming to work and live here. Couldn't agree more. They're hard working and probably all mostly speak Polish by now. Their kids will basically be Poles with funny-sounding surnames. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Alymov Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 4 minutes ago, ink said: That debt is gonna get paid by people's taxes. And guess who doesn't pay taxes. The very idea of my post above was that this debt will newer be paid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Alymov Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 Not always recruiters beat conscripts - sometimes conscripts beat recruiters https://t.me/DonbassYasinovatayanaliniiOgnia/50551 Throwing stones also goes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkenny Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 29 minutes ago, TrustMe said: About 3 million Romanians came to the UK when we were in the EU. This sort of massive immigration is one of the reasons why we left the EU. You been watching too much GB News mate, that figure is bollocks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urbanoid Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 16 minutes ago, Roman Alymov said: Take a look at Greece islands, or south Italy, some regions of Spain and Portugal, or even Turkey and imagine removing all that was constructed over last 30 years, after USSR collapsed and fruits of this collapse taken all across "free world". What makes you believe your place was to have more actual prosperity and economic growth thein this (perfectly NATO) places? Greece and Portugal managed to give their populations much higher standards of living than any communist shithole, not to mention stuff that isn't about economy. What makes me believe that my place would have more actual prosperity? Geez, maybe the fact that we actually managed to get one after the Soviet Union decided to fuck off first and then die? In the non-Soviet bloc Europe it was a norm rather than exception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yama Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 18 minutes ago, mkenny said: You been watching too much GB News mate, that figure is bollocks. I think it's from same source as earlier "30 million Poles" number Wikipedia claims that actual number of Romanians in UK is about half a million. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yama Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 42 minutes ago, urbanoid said: Japan and Worst Korea seem to be managing despite shrinking population. South Korea’s birth rate has become a national emergency Japan Radically Increased Immigration—and No One Protested 42 minutes ago, urbanoid said: The thing with the current economic model is that it can absorb pretty much any number of people. A million Ukrainians worked here before the war and 'the economy' was still asking for more. Since then we had several hundred thousand of Belarusians coming AND Ukrainian refugees (who mostly work) AND we have issued 200k+ of worker visas on top of that. What is 'the economy' doing? That's right, still asking for more. Yes this is also true. When people move in, it expands the economy as they need housing, services, consumables etc. This is why liberal economists are usually strongly in favour of immigration - more is better, as in their books, GDP is sole and only measure of economical success, and immigration increases GDP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Galbraith Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 www.express.co.uk/news/world/1878109/dead-soldiers-russian-election-ukraine-claims/amp Russia is planning to put the the names of dead and missing soldiers on ballots backing Vladimir Putin to boost his numbers in the general election currently taking place, Ukraine claimed. Take that Biden! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Alymov Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 About French plans for deployment on Eastern front https://southfront.press/breaking-france-already-conducts-combat-training-of-its-battalion-group-assigned-for-ukraine/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ink Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 59 minutes ago, Roman Alymov said: The very idea of my post above was that this debt will newer be paid. It'll be paid... And replaced by new debt. In the UK, most of the debt is from domestic banks. Guess who owns them. In the EU, it's more of a mixed bag. But I don't see any bankers quing up at food banks or riding delivery bikes to supplement their income. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Alymov Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 13 minutes ago, urbanoid said: Greece and Portugal managed to give their populations much higher standards of living than any communist shithole, not to mention stuff that isn't about economy. I do not have statistical data, but on personal level i was, let's say, unimpressed by the little parts i have seen. Nice people, nice climate (but hard to grow something without major efforts to bring water etc.), but everything older than 30 years was mostly looking like straight out of XIX century if not earlier. Re "stuff that isn't about economy" - as far as i remember Greece was military dictatorship almost to the year i was born, and Portugal got own local troubles. 20 minutes ago, urbanoid said: What makes me believe that my place would have more actual prosperity? Geez, maybe the fact that we actually managed to get one after the Soviet Union decided to fuck off first and then die? In the non-Soviet bloc Europe it was a norm rather than exception. "After" is not working here - Poland left Soviet block as developed economy with all types of industry except may be nuclear and space, wast working class ans science, developed infrastructure - and went straight into "unipolar moment" with all benefits it was possible to get from West (i think it might be interesting for you to listen to Jeffrey Sachs who was advisor both for Russian and Poland Gov at the same time - about how easy it was for him to get Western aid for Poland and how he was kicked out when trying to find the same for Russia). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Alymov Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 1 minute ago, ink said: It'll be paid... And replaced by new debt. In the UK, most of the debt is from domestic banks. Guess who owns them. In the EU, it's more of a mixed bag. But I don't see any bankers quing up at food banks or riding delivery bikes to supplement their income. It is like replacing old debt note with fresh one. Effectively - not paying at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenn239 Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 2 hours ago, urbanoid said: Wasn't it that it COULD be kicked in after 5000 a day, while it WOULD kick in only after 8000? Anyway, under Obama a 1000 a day was called a 'crisis' by his Homeland Security, now 5000 COULD be a crisis. Thanks. I didn't know about the 8,000 threshold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ink Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 19 minutes ago, Yama said: When people move in, it expands the economy as they need housing, services, consumables etc. This is why liberal economists are usually strongly in favour of immigration - more is better, as in their books, GDP is sole and only measure of economical success, and immigration increases GDP. More to the point, they can be employed in low wage jobs and used to make sure those wages stay low. A friend's dad worked as a carpenter in the UK in the 70s. He could use his wages to buy the kind of house his parents could only dream of. Now his kids will only be able to afford a house or home of any kind when he dies. And they've spent their entire adult lives paying rent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ink Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 32 minutes ago, urbanoid said: Greece and Portugal managed to give their populations much higher standards of living than any communist shithole ...except one 😎 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Alymov Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 Krasnopol(?) vs. ARV in process of towing damaged tank, with location https://t.me/creamy_caprice/4770 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Alymov Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 Combined strike by regular and cluster Iskanders on radar position ~40 km from frontline https://t.me/creamy_caprice/4766 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Alymov Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 Documentary on one of the episodes of pro-Rus infantry actions West from Avdeevka https://t.me/filatovcorr/2897 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrustMe Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 1 hour ago, mkenny said: You been watching too much GB News mate, that figure is bollocks. No seriously look it up. 3 million Polish people and another 3 million Romanins came in the space of 15 years from 2002-2019. 750,000 people came in last year alone, even though were not in the EU anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old_goat Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 1 hour ago, Yama said: This is why liberal economists are usually strongly in favour of immigration - more is better, as in their books, GDP is sole and only measure of economical success, and immigration increases GDP. This indicates that these economists are so bad at their job. GDP became a meaningless thing now. High GDP does not mean that an economy is successful, or living standards go up. Hungary is a good example. Our GDP is constantly going up at an accelerating rate, but on the other hand, living standards went down significantly. And its quite simple why. A liberal economy, like in Hungary relies on multinational corporations. They create GDP, but at the same time, withdraw almost all the profits from the host country. A country that relies on domestic economy may have less GDP but at the same time, better living standards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkenny Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 55 minutes ago, TrustMe said: No seriously look it up. 3 million Polish people and another 3 million Romanins came in the space of 15 years from 2002-2019. 750,000 people came in last year alone, even though were not in the EU anymore. Clearly you have no idea how to read the numbers and you believe all the garbage spouted by Farage and Tice. Suffice to say you are using the net migration numbers for ALL immigrants from EVERYWHERE . Your belief it is all 'fault of the nasty EU' is very telling and 'ill-informed' does not even come close to describing your situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkenny Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 By 2040 The UK population with a 'major illness' is predicted to rise by 37%. By contrast the 'working population (20-59 year olds) will only increase by 4%. That a cold hard fact that has to dealt with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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