Some RAF pilots to be trained in Italy

[lucklucky]

At ITFS - International Flight Training School setup by Italian Air Force and Leonardo.  Some other countries like Germany, Japan, Canada also have pilots there.

I think it helps that Italy and UK have got the same fighter aircraft since 70's : Tornado, Eurofighter, Harrier, F-35 and with Tempest they might have well get the same fighting aircraft for 100 years. Plus the problems with Bae Hawk.

 

Edited May 16, 2023 by lucklucky

[Stuart Galbraith]

This may have deeper roots than it appears. The reason why the RAF have been languishing in the amount of fast jet pilots it can produce, is capacity. In 2010 the incoming Government had the brilliant idea to reduce the size of the RAF to cut the Government deficeit. What they didnt recognise is that when they reduced the requirement for pilots, there was no need for the large pilot training program the RAF had. So they cut it. When the F35 came in to replace the Harrier, they found they didnt have anything like the pilot training capacity to produce pilots, hence we have barely enough pilots for the F35's we have. I gather there is actually more Typhoons than some pilots in at least 2 squadrons.

So this may be stacked up as trying to solve the Ukraine problem. It probably is. Its also trying to fix a 13 year old problem based on politicians trying to do a quick fix, and having unforseen effects a decade later. Which is obviously completely unlike the British MOD.....

[lucklucky]

But RAF had enough Hawks to do training before the public issues, or that was a problem that already existed for years?

[futon]

There's no twin seater F-35. 

The T-346A is apparantly really good. 

[Stuart Galbraith]

Well its a long and complicated procurement which I dont claim to understand. But Hawk T2 was seemingly supposed to replace 75 Hawk T1, which in the event they only bought 28 of. Wikipedia has this.

In October 2017, the RAF and Royal Navy operated 75 Hawk T1 and 28 Hawk T2. According to the Ministry of Defence, the planned out-of-service date for the Hawk T1 was 2030, with the aircraft selected to meet the requirements of the Air Support to Defence Operational Training (ASDOT) programme beginning to replace the Hawk from 2027.^[46] However, in July 2021, it was announced that all UK military units operating the Hawk T1 aircraft, apart from the Red Arrows, would see their airframes retired by 31 March 2022.

 

So there probably is only 28 Hawk T2. Which if you are trying to train fast jet pilots, is something of a capacity problem, and explains why they retired the Hawk as the threat demonstrator for the Royal Navy (I think private contractors using Hunters among other things are doing that now) I dont know if this was part of the 2010 cutbacks, or it was just a choice made. But whatever it was, it was a grave mistake.

Im glad we are going with the Italians, but its a shame we didnt take the opportunity to set up something with the rest of the Commonwealth. Training in Australian skies strikes me as the best way to go.

[TrustMe]

As Stuart has said, the training of RAF pilots has been very bad. Pilot training is so bad that after the supposed 5 years it takes to train one they still haven't left the ground. That's what you get when you privatize training with an abysmal amount of training aircraft. The government has been sticking it's head in the sand about this for over 10 years. Now that we're effectively in a proxy war with Russia the shit has hit the fan, thus Italy.

Edited May 16, 2023 by TrustMe

[Stuart Galbraith]

I shouldnt indulge in shadenfreude, but its deeply pleasing that the guys who create the mess, now have to reap the consequences. Their defence policy for the past 13 years has been utter folly. Not that Labours was great either, but at least nobody pretended we didnt need fast jet pilots.

Its all so bloody tiresome and unnecessary.

[seahawk]

1 hour ago, TrustMe said:

As Stuart has said, the training of RAF pilots has been very bad. Pilot training is so bad that after the supposed 5 years it takes to train one they still haven't left the ground. That's what you get when you privatize training with an abysmal amount of training aircraft. The government has been sticking it's head in the sand about this for over 10 years. Now that we're effectively in a proxy war with Russia the shit has hit the fan, thus Italy.

Privatizing works, if you let the industry work on it. It does not if the government dictates the tools to be used and then has one contractor providing the government owned  tools for another contractor.

[DB]

3 hours ago, seahawk said:

Privatizing works, if you let the industry work on it. It does not if the government dictates the tools to be used and then has one contractor providing the government owned  tools for another contractor.

MFTS has been a disaster from one end to another. A legacy of the entirely failed PFI initiatives. the main problem I have with it is that the company consortia that are formed to meet it are allowed to form limited liability companies that provide the "service" poorly, ruining the assets that have been bought for them by taking profit when maintenance should be performed, sucking up paper losses whilst transferring paper revenues to the parent companies as "loan repayments". Then they default on contracts and collapse the companies with large outstanding debts whilst the parent companies make off with the money.

See also leveraged purchases and venture capital companies. Leeches all.

[Stuart Galbraith]

This sounds remarkably similar to what happened with Railtrack and the other remnants of British Rail.

Well hopefully we will have more success in Italy, which has zero history of fiddling or corruption.....

[alejandro_]

Germany has also signed an agreement to train fighter pilots... having a European facility might not be a bad idea in this era of shrinking fighter fleets.

https://www.leonardo.com/en/press-release-detail/-/detail//29-09-2021-international-flight-training-school-german-pilots-choose-to-be-trained-in-italy-with-the-italian-air-force-and-leonardo

[swerve]

As I understand it, the Italians always intended the school in Sardinia to be international, & have tried to attract foreign customers. The ranges there have long been used by allied air forces.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Must be good flying weather there. Good bars, good food....

[Stuart Galbraith]

This fella has a good thread on the shortcomings in RAF training, explains a lot.

 

[Sardaukar]

Morale will be definitely enhanced by actual decent food and local population. 

Though they'll miss English breakfast, there it is cappuccino and cigarette