Cold War, The Reimagined Series

[R011]

1 hour ago, ex2cav said:

That isn't the point. All I am saying is to see the issue from the other side. 

But it is the point.  What is Ukraine (allegedly) threatening to be able to do that they might conceivably do?  What exactly are they (supposedly) afraid of?

[Stuart Galbraith]

1 hour ago, ex2cav said:

That isn't the point. All I am saying is to see the issue from the other side. 

The other side that has lined up 170000 troops, 2000 tanks, Christ knows how many Iskander missiles, and whose leader continually references nuclear war, and jokes about having sex with Ukraines corpse?

Funnily enough, when I get threatened with Violence I get less and less interested with what the other side is saying. Im more inclined to say stuff their opinion and lets arm up. Im old fashioned like that.

Their position has been poked by numerous academics, military men, newsmen and many others. its been comprehensively debunked as wholly bogus. The only people continually saying we should give in to Russia are the Far Left. These are the same people whom said we should have gone to sleep in the snow for the USSR in the 1980's. Who turned out to be right?

 

[Roman Alymov]

23 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

The other side that has lined up 170000 troops, 2000 tanks, Christ knows how many Iskander missiles, and whose leader continually references nuclear war, and jokes about having sex with Ukraines corpse?

Not “Ukraines” but President Zelensky personally, and "corpse" context is only referenced if one believe it is from the rock song of 1980th, while it is not obvious as this saying is quite common in contemoirary Russian. «"As for the Minsk agreements, if they are alive and whether they have any prospects or not. I think there is simply no other alternative. I repeat once again, in Kiev they say that they will comply, then they say that it will destroy their country. The current president recently stated that he does not like any of these Minsk agreements. "Like it, don't like it — be patient, my beauty.” It is necessary to execute. It won't work any other way," Putin said.

I do not remember Western media so worried by liberal use of fault language  by pro-Ukrainians (including top officials) towards Russia and personally Putin. As Russian, I see no reason to stay polite.

Here is official billboard paid by UKR national fuel administration after they dropped long-term contract with Russia in favor of market prices

“Kremlin dwellers <ass> is burning because not they, but market define the price of gas for Ukraine.  Lrt it burn”

https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/667bdr/11815929/131132/131132_900.jpg

Now, when they got market price and this market price is too much for bakeries to afford it – what can I say? They asked for it….

[Stuart Galbraith]

Why dont you just say 'Ukrainians' and 'Seperatists'? Because that is what they are.

[Josh]

2 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

...The only people continually saying we should give in to Russia are the Far Left. 

 

To be fair, in the US it also the far right. Republican voters are twice as likely to say Ukraine is none of America's business.

[glenn239]

2 hours ago, R011 said:

But it is the point.  What is Ukraine (allegedly) threatening to be able to do that they might conceivably do? 

They could base US military forces.    

[glenn239]

2 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

The other side that has lined up 170000 troops, 2000 tanks, Christ knows how many Iskander missiles, and whose leader continually references nuclear war, and jokes about having sex with Ukraines corpse?

Funnily enough, when I get threatened with Violence I get less and less interested with what the other side is saying. Im more inclined to say stuff their opinion and lets arm up. Im old fashioned like that.

I'd be all for a scrap myself if I could see where it was leading except to the destruction of Ukraine and the enhancement of the Sino-Russian geopolitical position.  

Quote

Their position has been poked by numerous academics, military men, newsmen and many others. its been comprehensively debunked as wholly bogus. The only people continually saying we should give in to Russia are the Far Left. These are the same people whom said we should have gone to sleep in the snow for the USSR in the 1980's. Who turned out to be right?

 There is a significant slice of the US Right that thinks the US has no interest in a war in Ukraine.  I believe you were saying Tucker Carlson is a traitor or something like that  the other day - you realize he's on the Right?

 

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

1 hour ago, Josh said:

To be fair, in the US it also the far right. Republican voters are twice as likely to say Ukraine is none of America's business.

Fair one. In Europe it seems primarily to be the left, but America is frankly beyond my comprehension lately.

58 minutes ago, glenn239 said:

I'd be all for a scrap myself if I could see where it was leading except to the destruction of Ukraine and the enhancement of the Sino-Russian geopolitical position.  

 There is a significant slice of the US Right that thinks the US has no interest in a war in Ukraine.  I believe you were saying Tucker Carlson is a traitor or something like that  the other day - you realize he's on the Right?

 

 

So your plan for the non destruction of Ukraine, is to hand it over peacibly to the Russians so they can make it just like Russia. You see the problem with this thinking dont you?

Yeah, I realise he was of the right. But I was actually thinking of this in the UK which is definately about as far left as you can go without carrying a copy of Mao's little red book.

http://www.socialistaction.net/2022/02/08/no-war-in-ukraine-stop-nato-expansion-online-meeting-thursday-10-february-630pm/

 

[Josh]

I think there are clearly moves the Ukraine or NATO could make that would prevent a conflict while not handing the whole country over to the Russians. But I don't think it is at all in NATO's interest to do so, outside perhaps some mutual agreement concerning geographic limitations of intermediate ranged weapons. Ukraine can make its own decisions on what is acceptable to it, but I think domestic voting pressure will prevent any adherence to the Minsk Agreement.

[glenn239]

2 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

So your plan for the non destruction of Ukraine, is to hand it over peacibly to the Russians so they can make it just like Russia. You see the problem with this thinking dont you?

Ukraine could go the way of Finland and steer clear of alliances.  This would assure no Russian invasion, especially if Zelensky started doing smart things like shopping for Russian jets.  

Quote

Yeah, I realise he was of the right. But I was actually thinking of this in the UK which is definately about as far left as you can go without carrying a copy of Mao's little red book.

Carlson thinks that China is the main US rival and that it's bonking the rafters for the US to get into it with Russia in Ukraine to the benefiet of China.  So, I guess my question is, why isn't 'bonking the rafters' one of those adorable British colloquialisms that islanders throw out seemingly at random?

Edited February 9, 2022 by glenn239

[ex2cav]

4 hours ago, glenn239 said:

They could base US military forces.    

Thank you Glenn. 

[ex2cav]

4 hours ago, glenn239 said:

I'd be all for a scrap myself if I could see where it was leading except to the destruction of Ukraine and the enhancement of the Sino-Russian geopolitical position.  

 There is a significant slice of the US Right that thinks the US has no interest in a war in Ukraine.  I believe you were saying Tucker Carlson is a traitor or something like that  the other day - you realize he's on the Right?

 

 

I think if there is a Russo- Ukrainian war, the west will feed whatever it takes to keep the Ukies fighting. The potential will be to turn Ukraine into Syria, Iraq or Afghanistan. In Europe. 

[RETAC21]

9 hours ago, R011 said:

Again, a threat to do what?

Listening to the local Russian ambassador, the Russians have the narrative down pat: NATO has declared Russia to be its main rival, so having the Ukraine join NATO would mean that Russia has a declared enemy on its border. It's all just like the Cuban missile crisis, and then no one complained that the US was being aggressive. And Russian forcesa re within Russia, after all...

 

The disturbing part was that the newsies were left speechless by these arguments...

[Josh]

33 minutes ago, ex2cav said:

I think if there is a Russo- Ukrainian war, the west will feed whatever it takes to keep the Ukies fighting. The potential will be to turn Ukraine into Syria, Iraq or Afghanistan. In Europe. 

I suspect the Russians won't create a situation where that is possible. They must be keenly aware of the possibility. I suspect while there could easily be a war, there won't be an invasion in the classical sense.

[Josh]

5 hours ago, glenn239 said:

They could base US military forces.    

Of course it does beg the question why almost all of Europe makes a conscious decision to base US forces. Russia's paranoia based foreign policy generally makes the situation it fears most come to life.

Why do we build the wall?

We build the wall to keep us free

How does the wall keep us free?

The wall keeps out the enemy

What do we have that they should want?

We have a wall to work upon!
And our work is never done
We build the wall to keep us free
 

 

[bd1]

2 hours ago, glenn239 said:

Ukraine could go the way of Finland and steer clear of alliances.  This would assure no Russian invasion, especially if Zelensky started doing smart things like shopping for Russian jets.  

 

this would guarantee russian takeover in next 20 years . you don´t really think through but post for posting sake ?

[Stuart Galbraith]

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

https://maphub.net/Cen4infoRes/russian-ukraine-monitor

[Roman Alymov]

2 hours ago, bd1 said:

this would guarantee russian takeover in next 20 years . you don´t really think through but post for posting sake ?

Nice to see you acknowlege Ukraine will inevitabely retirn to its normal status (part of Russia) if constant "war with Russia" removed

By the way seems like Lukashenko think the same, even predicted time is simmilar: "Ukraine could ultimately join a union state with Russia and Belarus as soon as 15 years from now if “mistakes” are avoided during the current crisis, President Alexander Lukashenko predicted in an interview with YouTube channel ‘Soloviev Live’, partly aired by Russian media on Sunday. The main problem is that the ongoing crisis is being stoked from across the Atlantic, he claimed, accusing Washington of actively pushing Kiev into a war with Russia.

“This is just the essence of the war, which is currently debated by you and by us; ‘Oh, Ukraine is going to war.’ It’s not Ukraine, it’s the Americans who are pushing them into war,” Lukashenko said."  https://www.rt.com/russia/548474-lukashenko-ukraine-union-state/

[Josh]

Ukraine will never rejoin Russia willingly, by popular opinion. Though it may indeed rejoin Russia depending on the choices it makes.

Edited February 9, 2022 by Josh

[Roman Alymov]

10 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Why dont you just say 'Ukrainians' and 'Seperatists'? Because that is what they are.

Nice to see you finally acknowledged my long-time statement that “Ukrainians” is not ethnicity/nationality, but political orientation (like “separatists”). And I have told many times that there is plenty of “Ukrainians-citizens of Ukraine” and “Ukrainians-the ethnic subgroup of Russians” among “Russians” and “separatists”. Since ideas are best illustrated by art, here is (again!) reel from “72 meters” movie (2004, by book published in 2000). For your reference as expert on Russians and Ukrainins, “Ivanov” is typical “Russian” second name, while “Konovalenko” is typical Ukrainian one 

With English subtitles for your convenience

 

[glenn239]

4 hours ago, Josh said:

Of course it does beg the question why almost all of Europe makes a conscious decision to base US forces. Russia's paranoia based foreign policy generally makes the situation it fears most come to life.

Habit mostly, I would think.  Rarely do things proceed at great pace in geopolitics, and certainly in cases where departing from tradition does not seem clearly the logical thing to do.  If you want my opinion it's that NATO should be disbanded and immediately replaced by an EU alliance that is functionally identical to NATO except that the non-EU countries are associated members. 

 

[glenn239]

2 hours ago, bd1 said:

this would guarantee russian takeover in next 20 years . you don´t really think through but post for posting sake ?

Looks to me that Ukraine might get invaded tomorrow because it's following your ideas on geopolitics.  Kicking the can 20 years down the road would be a huge improvement.  

[Josh]

20 minutes ago, glenn239 said:

Habit mostly, I would think.  Rarely do things proceed at great pace in geopolitics, and certainly in cases where departing from tradition does not seem clearly the logical thing to do.  If you want my opinion it's that NATO should be disbanded and immediately replaced by an EU alliance that is functionally identical to NATO except that the non-EU countries are associated members. 

 

Eastern European nations have a habit of rotating NATO and US troops? If anything they are now requesting a permanent presence. That doesn’t seem like they just can’t give up smoking.

a non NATO EU based organization is doomed to fail politically and militarily and in any case always loses the escalation cycle against Russia no matter what it does. They are welcome to put one together any time they want; the US isn’t going to put a hundred thousand troops on the French border if Macron wants to get that done.

[glenn239]

5 hours ago, ex2cav said:

Thank you Glenn. 

The Russians were content with the status quo after 2000, and it's the West that has been pushing the matter, always with the attempts to expand the EU and NATO eastwards.  Back in 2014 I was for NATO putting up the border stakes in the East and saying no more expansion on this front.  Nothing that has happened since suggests anything but that NATO expansion eastwards has passed beyond any coherent expression of Western interests.  The risks are huge and the payoffs are shit.

Quote

I think if there is a Russo- Ukrainian war, the west will feed whatever it takes to keep the Ukies fighting. The potential will be to turn Ukraine into Syria, Iraq or Afghanistan. In Europe. 

The US policy failed in Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan, so if that's the plan in Washington they should get another plan.  :^)