Kiev Is Burning

[X-Files]

http://youtu.be/85WBb9xA9AI

 

Key Points

• Clashes continue overnight as police renew their assault on the main protest camp in the capital, Kiev
• At least 18 people have died, including seven police officers, and scores of people have been injured in a long day of violence
• Crisis talks between main opposition leaders and President Viktor Yanukovych have failed, reports say
• Foreign governments are urging the authorities in Ukraine to end the violence
• The unrest began in November, when Mr Yanukovych rejected a deal with the EU in favour of closer ties with Russia
• All times in GMT

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26244542

 

reading music

Edited February 19, 2014 by X-Files

[baboon6]

Shock horror, not everyone loves Putin as much as X-Files.

[Marek Tucan]

Seems things got really ugly yesterday. Also it would seem that at least two police officers killed were not killed while storming the protester's camp, but in a shooting incident with unknown gunmen outside of "the zone".

[sunday]

Not to count the various nastinesses that occurred while being the hinterland of the Polish-Lithuanian confederation.

[X-Files]

Shock horror, not everyone loves Putin as much as X-Files.

 

And after all these years those paint chips still taste pretty good, huh?

 

 

Meanwhile, back at the topic

 

KIEV, Ukraine — With hundreds of riot police officers advancing from all sides after a day of deadly mayhem here in the Ukrainian capital, antigovernment protesters mounted a final desperate and seemingly doomed act of defiance late on Tuesday evening, establishing a protective ring of fire around what remained of their all-but-conquered encampment on Independence Square.

 

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/19/world/europe/ukraine.html?_r=0

 

 

Was watching Russia Today last night and discovered,

 

You couldn't hunt up a URL to bring and share with the rest of the class?

Edited February 19, 2014 by X-Files

[Marcello]

but somehow Ive a job believing that anyone who wants to join the EU is inherently right wing

 

 

At this stage I doubt joining the EU is the central issue anymore.

[Marek Tucan]

..or splitting the Ukraine between Ukrainian and Russian regions.

[swerve]

Marek,

 

How would that work? You can't construct a geographically contiguous Russian state from Russian parts of Ukraine.

 

Or are you confusing language with ethnicity? Don't be fooled by language: the majority of those who speak Russian more than Ukrainian think of themselves as Ukrainian. Millions of Ukrainians admit to speaking Russian at home, but still say that Ukrainian is their native language, & of those who say Russian is their native language (a third of the population), almost half call themselves Ukrainian. And for the most part, those Russian-speaking Ukrainians live mixed up with the Russians.

 

The best you could end up with would be an overwhelmingly Ukrainian, Ukrainian-speaking country, & a country where most people speak Russian, but are divided between Russians & Ukrainians. At that point, I reckon they'd start thinking less about which language they speak, & more about their ethnic identification.

Edited February 19, 2014 by swerve

[swerve]

Needless to say, Russia Today hit an all time low. If it wasn't for Sophie Shevardnadze I probably wouldnt bother again.

Oh yes. Granddaughter of Eduard.

 

Georgian, of course. but lived mostly in France & the USA from when she was 10 to when she left university, & apparently speaks Russian better than Georgian, which was a factor in moving to Russia. Her grandfather no longer being president may have been another one. It must have become easier to sack her from Georgian TV for linguistic mistakes when they no longer had to explain it to the president.

Edited February 19, 2014 by swerve

[Marek Tucan]

Marek,

 

How would that work? You can't construct a geographically contiguous Russian state from Russian parts of Ukraine.

 

Or are you confusing language with ethnicity? Don't be fooled by language: the majority of those who speak Russian more than Ukrainian think of themselves as Ukrainian. Millions of Ukrainians admit to speaking Russian at home, but still say that Ukrainian is their native language, & of those who say Russian is their native language (a third of the population), almost half call themselves Ukrainian. And for the most part, those Russian-speaking Ukrainians live mixed up with the Russians.

 

The best you could end up with would be an overwhelmingly Ukrainian, Ukrainian-speaking country, & a country where most people speak Russian, but are divided between Russians & Ukrainians. At that point, I reckon they'd start thinking less about which language they speak, & more about their ethnic identification.

 

 

On ethnical divide. After the famine and after WWII, there was a large re-settlement of Ukraine, partly driven by simple "we need workers in mines/factories" motive and partly by "we need to establish Russian presence". AFAIK for example Crimea is rather heavily Russian, large regions of Eastern Ukraine as well.

 

I for sure hope it will not get that far, as that could turn very nasty.

[sunday]

Also, Crimea is historically Russian, not Ukrainian.

[Josh]

 

but somehow Ive a job believing that anyone who wants to join the EU is inherently right wing

 

 

At this stage I doubt joining the EU is the central issue anymore.

 

 

For Russia it absolutely is. The Ukraine will always be in their sphere and always be their soft spot. The EU/US is really poking the bear by remotely touching the Ukraine. There is nothing to gain, unless your goal actually IS to piss off Russia and keep them occupied...which might be the case, as a little revenge for Syria. "See? We can annoy the fuck out of you too."

Edited February 19, 2014 by Josh

[X-Files]

Art imitates life. Life imitates art.

 

Following a series of contentious elections in which both sides accused the other of support from outside the country, the Ukraine began to fracture. What started as competing protest marches in the streets rapidly escalated into a shooting war between the different factions. When the President of the Ukraine finally ordered the Army to restore order, several units revolted, and the President appealed to NATO for assistance.

Ignoring Russian warnings against intervening, NATO provided a small UK-led force, which the Russians countered with a reinforced mechanized corps, plus reinforcements from their Belorussian allies. The US sent their available forces to the Polish frontier, hoping that their deterrent effect would stabilize the situation.

The Ukrainian "Interventionists" (so named for their favorability toward Russian "intervention") had organized their own fighting force around the two mechanized brigades (and assorted smaller units) that mutinied against the national command. Russian operatives assisted in arming and organizing the "101 Brigade" from provinces near the border; other partisans throughout the Ukraine also took up arms on the Interventionist side.

The Ukrainian government incorporated their volunteers into the standing army, hoping to avoid any public relations backlash from having irregular forces on the battlefield, as they attempted to paint the conflict as a civil war in which the Russians were meddling and NATO were invited peacekeepers.
The first battles were joined near Lvov, as the Interventionists bypassed Kiev and pushed as far west as possible, hoping to prevent the NATO forces from establishing a bridgehead in the Ukraine. Russian and Belorussian reinforcements arrived from the north to try and flank the existing Ukrainian national forces before NATO could join the fight. The Americans were moving through Poland, but had concerns about the security of their supply lines.

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Next Wars I: Orange Crush will ship in a solid box with over 200 counters, a gorgeous map from Olivier Revenu, a rulebook and scenario book, players references, and 2 decks of command cards.

 

 

http://www.bayonetgames.com/nworangecrush.htm

[Marek Tucan]

Hm, seems that Lviv region was "taken over", Crimean politicians are voicing support to Russia...

[X-Files]

Canadian Embassy closed

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/canada-closes-embassy-in-kiev-as-ukrainian-violence-escalates/article16967324/

 

Mr. Baird announced medical aid to an unidentified Ukrainian non-governmental organization, including first aid kits, training and other supplies.

“I will also be consulting our allies and like-minded nations to build a co-ordinated path forward in the coming days. All options remain available, including through the deployment of targeted sanctions against those responsible,” Mr. Baird said in his statement, adding: “Canada strongly supports the Ukrainian people in their fight for a free and democratic Ukraine.”

 

Edited February 19, 2014 by X-Files

[Marcello]

Marek,

 

How would that work? You can't construct a geographically contiguous Russian state from Russian parts of Ukraine.

 

Perhaps not , however in principle a civil war can happen for political reasons even without a well thought out rationale or neat ethnical divides.

 

There is nothing to gain, unless your goal actually IS to piss off Russia and keep them occupied...which might be the case, as a little revenge for Syria. "See? We can annoy the fuck out of you too."

 

 

A look at gas pipelines layout should suggest immediately that if the manure reaches the fan it could quickly become the equivalent of cutting off the nose to spite the face, at least for the EU. Then again perhaps that's expecting too much from politicians.

[Damian]

 

Not to count the various nastinesses that occurred while being the hinterland of the Polish-Lithuanian confederation.

 

This is a more complex issue, in fact it was both tragedy for Crown and Ukraine, because some fools on both sides were playing their own games, and these fools leaded to downfall of both Ukraine and Commonwealth as a whole. But this is a history.

 

A more recent things, at some border crossings between Poland and Ukraine, was observed some unusual movement on the Ukrainian side. People in civilian clothes are blocking roads with barricades made from trees, cars and such stuff. It is strange. Polish side try to investigate what is going on, especially that this is just at the border. Some theoretize it might be attempt to eventually block any refugees, as our goverment stated that we are ready to provide support for refugees.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Damian

[sunday]

Oh, I think the main culprit of the downfall was probably the Liberum veto.

[Damian]

 

Oh, I think the main culprit of the downfall was probably the Liberum veto.

 

Yes but it was not the only reasons. This was a whole process, with magnats being the main reason, of course not all of them.

 

But as I said, what happened then was a tragedy for all nations living in commonwealth, for Poles, Ukrainians, Lithuanians, everyone. In fact in some sense, we all suffer because these bad events in the past, also today.

 

Not to mention that some powers, liked to false our history to further increase "bad blood" between our nations. But this is OT, and we should stop discussing about this.

[sunday]

Right!

[Heirophant]

For the sake of argument, let us posit an essential Ukrainian identity, a unified one regardless of language.

Language is but one part of cultural affinity, and sometimes not the crucial one, after all.

 

Even with that stipulation, it is not clear if the Ukrainian people are united at all in wanting to be in either the Western or Russian spheres of influence. Ukraine has a split identity, with some fraction feeling more European, another closer to Russian. This is the long term parameter regarding Ukraine, one that will not go away. Centuries of history make it so.

 

The best long-term strategy for them would be to navigate carefully between Europe and Russia, falling into neither camp, maintaining their cultural uniqueness and independence. The outside powers should have a de facto understanding that Ukraine is not to be used as pawn, but that both sides should be consulted on Ukrainian external matters. Okay, this paragraph is full of ideal BS platitudes, I know. But it still had to be stated.

 

To the extent ALL sides (Ukraine, the "West", Russia) can follow that basic game plan, (and cultivate a modicum of good faith dealing, and keep cynical power politics in check), the Ukraine could become a true gateway between Europe and the rest of Eurasia.

 

Hmmm, now that I think about it, the odds are not looking good . . .

[Damian]

Indeed, you have a very good point.

[X-Files]

..or splitting the Ukraine between Ukrainian and Russian regions.

 

 

This one map helps explain Ukraine’s protests

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/12/09/this-one-map-helps-explain-ukraines-protests/

 

Related - pipeline map

http://en.ria.ru/infographics/20090609/155206402.html

Edited February 19, 2014 by X-Files

[Marek Tucan]

Seems a truce was established, let's hope it holds up. Hope all my colleagues over there are OK.

[crazyinsane105]

Funny how I was considering heading to Kiev just a few months ago as part of my world tour. I leave on Friday to Saudi Arabia and then off to Turkey, Greece, and then Portugal. There is a possibility I may head to Simferopol, Ukraine, or even Odessa. A friend's ex-gf wants me to visit her ridiculously gorgeous female companion who probably just wants to marry an American for a free ticket out of Ukraine. If anything I'll take her up on the offer (not the marriage part...the visiting part) and take a tour of Simferopol, but of course I'm staying the hell away from Kiev.

 

If plans change I'll let you guys know. Not sure if I would call this a civil war yet...Ukrainians seem a lot more tame than the countries in the Middle East.

Edited February 19, 2014 by crazyinsane105