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Seems a truce was established, let's hope it holds up. Hope all my colleagues over there are OK.

 

There's always someone that thinks Truce means Reload.

 

Insanity

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/photography/2014/02/ukraine_protest_photos_police_and_protesters_clash_during_demonstrations.html

Edited by X-Files
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Indeed, you have a very good point.

Yes.

 

Identifying language with ethnicity is inaccurate. So is identifying either language or ethnicity with western/Russian inclination. I think it's more complicated than that.

 

Some Ukrainians want to swing west, some east, Probably, even Russians are divided (remember that a majority of Russians in Latvia voted for independence in the early 1990s: considering oneself Russian does not mean one has to want to be part of the Russian state. I had a long conversation with a Russian in Riga in 1994 who was very pro-Latvian, for example), though in different proportions from Ukrainians.

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Seems the truce was broken - reportedly by part of the protesters belonging to the most extreme fraction. Seems it got nasty again, with over 20 dead reported...

 

EDIT: Re riot police, hard to say if they throw their own or just throw back unbroken protester's molotovs, but anyway it is a clear way to grenades... And then to whoever the army sides with. Reportedly the relieved Chief of Staff was opposed to using army to suppress the protests, so it may indeed turn ugly.

Edited by Marek Tucan
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Nope, they were throwing their own. Saw some footage on sky of them throwing an unbroken molotov (not quite sure how one could land unbroken!)

Getting Molotov cocktails to break upon impact can be surprisingly difficult, unless they land squarely, oftentimes they just bounce along without breaking.

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Molotovs among police. From the Slate site linked above. After receiving a few of these, the temptation to return the thought would have to be strong.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/photography/2014/02/ukraine_protest_photos_police_and_protesters_clash_during_demonstrations.html

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Unconfirmed but the story behind this video of police with AKs & sniper rifles: Police confiscated video from a reporter but it was a live stream, that's why you can see it now. Approx. 25 people were killed just today, predominantly by snipers.

 

http://www.radiosvoboda.org/media/video/25270710.html

 

Updated photo postings.

http://trasyy.livejournal.com/1294622.html

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Here's an excellent gallery of pics, many of them with very descriptive captions. http://zyalt.livejournal.com/984735.html

 

Most interesting point: the revolutionaries have a somewhat-established logistical network, with different groups of people regularly tasked with producing Molotov cocktails, supplying food and water to the frontline fighters, supplying chunks of ice as building material for barricades, and breaking bricks/rocks into smaller ones for ammunition. There's also guards who keep the non-combat types away from high-risk areas. Very little looting is occurring, and when it does the looters apparently get their asses beat with a quickness.

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Most interesting point: the revolutionaries have a somewhat-established logistical network

 

 

 

Strange then that the security forces haven't figured out how to contain the two squares inhabited by protestors and restrict movement in and out. Surely that would be a way to quickly bring the situation to a head.

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Anybody still think that pesky Second Amendment is an anachronism?

 

 

*Bleat* You can't fight tanks with rifles! *Bleat*

 

 

KIEV, Ukraine (AP) — Fearing that a call for a truce was a ruse, protesters tossed firebombs and advanced upon police lines Thursday in Ukraine's embattled capital. Government snipers shot back and the almost-medieval melee that ensued left at least 70 people dead and hundreds injured, according to a protest doctor.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/medic-least-70-protesters-killed-kiev-155554941.html

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From my Russian and Ukrainian friends who have folks Ukraine...apparently snipers have started shooting people at random. A girl I spoke too in Kiev (one that wants me to visit) said outside of independence square, life is perfectly normal and people are minding their own business. So I guess it's pretty hard to say how bad it really is...it still isn't anything bad compared to the uprisings that started in Syria or Libya.

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Anybody still think that pesky Second Amendment is an anachronism?

 

 

One might think it would feel good to shoot at government goons, one thing leads to an other and you can end up with a civil war with perhaps an ethnic angle thrown in for good measure. Such things tend to be very unpleasant and one should think long and hard whether it is actually a risk worth taking. Having lots of guns does not automatically bring general goodness, else Iraq would be Switzerland, it can only back up an already functional political culture.

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From my Russian and Ukrainian friends who have folks Ukraine...apparently snipers have started shooting people at random. A girl I spoke too in Kiev (one that wants me to visit) said outside of independence square, life is perfectly normal and people are minding their own business. So I guess it's pretty hard to say how bad it really is...it still isn't anything bad compared to the uprisings that started in Syria or Libya.

 

KIEV, February 19 (RIA Novosti) – Violent unrest in Ukraine’s capital has spread to other cities in the former Soviet nation, highlighting geographical divisions and raising fears that civil conflict could spin out of control.

Reported disturbances were concentrated in the major cities of the country’s west, the heartland of Ukrainian nationalism, where there is strong backing for anti-government protesters in Kiev, but it also spread to the east where President Viktor Yanukovych draws his support.

In the Ukrainian city of Lviv, near the country’s border with Poland, mobs reportedly seized administrative buildings and set fire to a military base.

“Go out and use your weapons to protect people – your family, your neighbors, your friends,” Lviv Mayor Andrei Sadovy wrote in a Facebook post addressed to security services Wednesday, the UNIAN news agency reported.

“Be aware that a little aggression on your side against the people with be met with a stronger response. It will be impossible to stop,” he wrote.

 

 

http://en.ria.ru/world/20140219/187681637/Fear-of-Nationwide-Turmoil-in-Ukraine-Mounts-as-Unrest-Spreads.html

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Anybody still think that pesky Second Amendment is an anachronism?

 

 

One might think it would feel good to shoot at government goons, one thing leads to an other and you can end up with a civil war with perhaps an ethnic angle thrown in for good measure. Such things tend to be very unpleasant and one should think long and hard whether it is actually a risk worth taking. Having lots of guns does not automatically bring general goodness, else Iraq would be Switzerland, it can only back up an already functional political culture.

 

Government goons act less like government goons when they realize that "the People" will come to their house and kill them, their family, all their friends and then burn down their house.

 

Switzerland is Switzerland because it's full of Swiss. Iraq is a shithole because it's full of Iraqis. Hardware only facilitates "the People" manifesting their culture, as you say. S/F....Ken M

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Anybody still think that pesky Second Amendment is an anachronism?

 

 

One might think it would feel good to shoot at government goons, one thing leads to an other and you can end up with a civil war with perhaps an ethnic angle thrown in for good measure. Such things tend to be very unpleasant and one should think long and hard whether it is actually a risk worth taking. Having lots of guns does not automatically bring general goodness, else Iraq would be Switzerland, it can only back up an already functional political culture.

 

It's not about feeling good, it's about self-preservation.

Edited by MCab
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Hah! Another TNer PM'd me about the thread, and I thought, "Feel good to shoot AT government goons...?"

 

No, it would feel good to KILL them: shoot them (not at), invite them to Molotov cocktail hour for some drinks, garrot them with wire strung across urban streets, your mileage may vary. Glad other TNers chimed in first and better.

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ukrainian parliament voted against the president and decided to imediately stop the use of lethal force by security services and to stop the anti terrorismn operations. So there seems to still a bit of sense in parliamentarians to stop the madness. We'll see what the president will do.

 

 

Rada Obliges Security Service Abolish Planned Antiterrorist Operation, Bans Use Of Fire Arms By Interior Ministry (23:19, Thursday, February 20, 2014) - http://un.ua/eng/article/493192.html

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The voting was unanimous... Because all the opposition PMs were present, and few of the ruling party - most of the latter were gone. Still, it was more than 50% of the parliament so should be valid. Whether the police will obey is another matter. If yes, there is a chance to de-escalate... If not, it would then depend on the army probably.

 

Reportedly, Kiev airport stopped normal flights and there are a lot of priority private flights heading out. So it may mean the end is near...

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The downside of "what if the protesters were armed en masse" would be that 1. there would be much less support and pressure from outside and 2. it would be a perfect case for escalation and sending in tanks. It cuts both ways. If police is faced by an unarmed crowd (or armed with mostly improvised weapons), they have much less motivation and desire to go lethal - but if police would be faced with matched firepower, then it is time to call in the army. And whatever sympathies individual soldiers may have to the cause of protest, it would often evaporate quite quickly under fire.

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