Timeline for APDS Replacement in NATO?

[AdmiralB]

When did fin start (and finish) replacing APDS in NATO stocks? I'd think it must have taken some time to be completely effected.

 

Did the UK lag the L7 users?

[D Simcock]

When did fin start (and finish) replacing APDS in NATO stocks? I'd think it must have taken some time to be completely effected.

 

Did the UK lag the L7 users?

 

The UK never fielded APFSDS for the L7 gun. By the time APFSDS was common in the west, the UK's tank force was entirely L11 armed. It seems that the L11 gun received the L23 APFSDS round in late 1984 (first fielded in Operation Lionheart?) for use in the Chieftain. This may have coincided with fielding another mark of Chieftain (Mark 11?). Challengers were fielded with APFSDS as their standard round.

 

Amongst other NATO nations, it seems the US fielded APFSDS first, in 1978 with the M60A3 and M1s were fielded with APFSDS as their standard round.

 

Germany fielded APFSDS for the L7 in 1980, but doesn't seem to have exported APFSDS rounds for the 105mm in the 1980's. Leopard 2 had APFSDS as its standard round for both Bundeswehr and export vehicles.

 

France fielded APFSDS in 1982 when the AMX30B2 became operational.

Not sure about the others. The Dutch may have switched to APFSDS only when they got the Leopard 2.

As far as I know, the Beligians never had an APFSDS round for their Leopard 1s.

 

Its also unclear how widespread APFSDS rounds were for older vehicles within the tank fleets of the UK, US, Germany and France.

For example was the APFSDS round only available to Chieftain Mark 11's M60A3's, certain marks of Leopard, and AMX30B2's or did the entire fleets of these older tanks (including early marks) become APFSDS capable?

 

As I understand it, to move from ASPDS to APFSDS requires some modifications to fire control computers, so it may be only newer marks could field APFSDS.

[John_Ford]

When we went from M48A5 to M60A3, We turned in APDS and drew M735 Fin Sabot for our UBL. That was in '84. We also carried (Still) WP and Beehive.

Edited January 20, 2011 by John_Ford

[AdmiralB]

Thanks folks.

 

Looks like the first with APDS (UK) were the last with fin. For some period, then, 105mm performance surpassed L11 120mm?

[11E30]

On the M60's and probably the M48A5, it would have been a mater of just changing the cam out in the ballistic computer and then reboresiting. The bigger problem would have been if the recoil spring was robust enough to handle the extra pressure. I may be wrong, I was never a MG.

[Harold Jones]

In the 2nd ACR we uploaded a few APDS rounds on our M60A3s even after APFSDS was being issued. The APFSDS, HEAT, HEP and WP were all too tall to fit in the slots nearest the front of the turret so rather than leaving them empty we carried APDS. We transitioned to M1s in beginning of 85 and that was when the APDS went away.

 

[EvanDP]

In the 2nd ACR we uploaded a few APDS rounds on our M60A3s even after APFSDS was being issued. The APFSDS, HEAT, HEP and WP were all too tall to fit in the slots nearest the front of the turret so rather than leaving them empty we carried APDS. We transitioned to M1s in beginning of 85 and that was when the APDS went away.

 

http://www.flickr.co...57608799868439/

 

I'm sure APDS would do some highly unpleasant things to a BMP, BRDM or BTR.

[Buq-Buq]

In the 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment, we received M774 APDUFSDS in June or July of 1981. At that time, the tanks (M60A3 PASSIVE) carried a mix of APDS and APDUFSDS, and the standard gunner’s controls allowed for both types. If I remember correctly, the tanks carried something like 12-15 rounds of M774. I don’t remember the mix of the other rounds: APDS; HEAT; WP only. In crew drills, APDS remained as “Sabot”, while APDUFSDS was “Fin”.

 

 

 

 

Mark

[DKTanker]

In the 2nd ACR we uploaded a few APDS rounds on our M60A3s even after APFSDS was being issued. The APFSDS, HEAT, HEP and WP were all too tall to fit in the slots nearest the front of the turret so rather than leaving them empty we carried APDS. We transitioned to M1s in beginning of 85 and that was when the APDS went away.

 

http://www.flickr.co...57608799868439/

Really? When we, 1AD, transitioned to M60A3s we turned in all of our M728 and uploaded M735 and M774. The last time I saw an M728 in a tank was 1981.

Edited January 30, 2011 by DKTanker

[DKTanker]

On the M60's and probably the M48A5, it would have been a mater of just changing the cam out in the ballistic computer and then reboresiting. The bigger problem would have been if the recoil spring was robust enough to handle the extra pressure. I may be wrong, I was never a MG.

The cam for sure, boresighting is not ammunition dependent. Odd as it may seem, the recoil spring is really a misnomer. It should be refered to as a "return to battery spring" because it does very little recoil buffering, that being the province of the recoil hydraulics.

[Jim Warford]

Really? When we, 1AD, transitioned to M60A3s we turned in all of our M728 and uploaded M735 and M774. The last time I saw an M728 in a tank was 1981.

 

When we drew our M60A3 (TTS) tanks in 2-81 (1AD), we transitioned fully to M735 IIRC. I don't remember having M774 in our UBL during the '81-'82 timeframe. I could be wrong... One of the coolest things about the ammo transition was that we calibrated our new tanks by firing our old M728 APDS rounds into the berm on the old "zero" range at Graf.

 

So, here's my question for the collective: how did the performance of the US M833 round compare to the performance of the British L23 round?

[methos]

So, here's my question for the collective: how did the performance of the US M833 round compare to the performance of the British L23 round?

 

Zaloga writes that the M833 could penetrate up to 420 mm RHAe, while the L23 ("the contemporary British 120 mm APFSDS") could only pentrate 400 mm RHAe. - (Osprey New Vanguard, M1 Abrams Main Battle Tan 1982 - 1992)

 

E: Both pentration values are at 2.000 m.

Edited March 24, 2011 by methos

[DKTanker]

When we drew our M60A3 (TTS) tanks in 2-81 (1AD), we transitioned fully to M735 IIRC. I don't remember having M774 in our UBL during the '81-'82 timeframe. I could be wrong... One of the coolest things about the ammo transition was that we calibrated our new tanks by firing our old M728 APDS rounds into the berm on the old "zero" range at Graf.

No, you're right. I did, but really didn't mean to, suggest that we had a mixed load of M735 and M774. I guess it was the spring of '82 that we replaced most of our M456A1 for M456A2, and latter in '82 or '83 that we turned in all of our M735 for M774.

[Guest Charles]

When we drew our M60A3 (TTS) tanks in 2-81 (1AD), we transitioned fully to M735 IIRC. I don't remember having M774 in our UBL during the '81-'82 timeframe. I could be wrong... One of the coolest things about the ammo transition was that we calibrated our new tanks by firing our old M728 APDS rounds into the berm on the old "zero" range at Graf.

 

So, here's my question for the collective: how did the performance of the US M833 round compare to the performance of the British L23 round?

The open source info that I can find so far give:

From Stefan Kotsch's well informed site.

 

L11gun L15 APDS 355mm steel @ 1Km

L11gun L15A4 APDS 450mm steel @2Km

 

From Rob Griffin's(aka Commander) Conqueror ISBN 1-86126-251-5

p114

 

L1A1 gun APDS 446mm @ 914m.

 

I would assume therefore that the L23A1 would do more than either of the two older aformentioned rounds. The L23 was designed to defeat frontally T64/T80 due to intel from BRIXMIS in the early 80's. So I think a bit more than 400mm as has been mentioned.

 

Should anyone have more up to date (OPSEC providing) info, then please correct me.

 

Charles

Edited March 28, 2011 by Charles

[Gorka L. Martinez-Mezo]

Spain introduced Israeli M94 for 90mm gunned M47s and 105mm M111 for M48A5 in 1982. The new ammo required new cams in the electromechanical ballistic "computers" plus new reticles on the main and secondary sights. The 48s seem to have had APDS before that, but the timeframe between the 105mm upgrade and the introduction of the M111 was quite narrow and APDS is sheldom discussed afterwards, although a German "DM13" APDS round usually shows up in manuals, which seems to be the German version of M392. APCBC, AP and HEAT for the 90mm gunned tanks before APFSDS.

 

The M48A5E2 included a real digital computer, so new ammo could be included fairly straight away. The system memory already had data for NATO ammo not in regular use.

Edited November 4, 2013 by Gorka L. Martinez-Mezo

[DKTanker]

Spain introduced Israeli M94 for 90mm gunned M47s and 105mm M111 for M48A5 in 1982. The new ammo required new cams in the electromechanical ballistic "computers" plus new reticles on the main and secondary sights. The 48s seem to have had APDS before that, but the timeframe between the 105mm upgrade and the introduction of the M111 was quite narrow and APDS is sheldom discussed afterwards, although a German "DM13" APDS round usially shows up in manuals, whoch seems to be the GErman version of M332. APCBC, AP and HEAT for the 90mm gunned tanks before APFSDS.

 

The M48A5E2 included a real digital computer, so new ammo could be included fairly straight away. The system memory already had data for NATO ammo not in regular use.

I can understand the necessity of changing out the ballistic reticle of the telescope of the M48A5, but why would the non-ballistic reticle need changing in the primary sight?

[Gorka L. Martinez-Mezo]

I can understand the necessity of changing out the ballistic reticle of the telescope of the M48A5, but why would the non-ballistic reticle need changing in the primary sight?

Made a spell check and some corrections to the initial reply; you're right, only the M105 telescope became M105D with a new reticle. Main sight is not mentioned. E1 vehicles seem to have kept the M32 main sight.

 

I found M392 as the APDS round for the upgraded M48 in an Army brochure; curiously enough, the APDS is not mentioned in the model modified to fire APFSDS, which included new ammo racks suitable for the longer rounds.

Edited November 4, 2013 by Gorka L. Martinez-Mezo

[Nikolas93TS]

The L23 was developed by Royal Ordnance in the early 1980s (possibly accepted for service in April 1983) and apparently reached first line units by late 1984-1985. I would note that in 1983 the first Challenger 1 main battle tanks were handed over to the armoured regiments of the British Army of the Rhine, which seems to be concurrent with L23 deployment. Chieftan ammo storage and sight had to be modified in order to carry APFSDS, and those variants were Mk 5/4, Mk 6/4, Mk 7/4 and Mk 8/4; all of which became Mk 9 on completion of full APFSDS stowage.

 

Unfortunately, information of when and how those modifications were carried on is not available to me.