The Soviet Army

[SCFalken]

What were the practical plans for Total Mobilization?

 

By the middle of the 1980s the Ground Forces contained about 210 manoeuvre divisions. About three-quarters were motor rifle divisions and the remainder tank divisions. However only relatively few formations were fully war ready. Three readiness categories, A, B, and V, after the first three letters of the Cyrillic alphabet, were in force. The Category A divisions were certified combat-ready and were fully equipped. B and V divisions were lower-readiness, 50–75% (requiring at least 72 hours of preparation) and 10–33% (requiring two months) respectively. The internal military districts usually contained only one or two A divisions, with the remainder B and V series formations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_army#Wartime

 

Cat A units are self-explanatory, but what about B and V (C?) Divisions? Where do the balance of personnel and equipment come from? Recalled Reservists, rapidly inducted conscripts and stuff in long-term storage (how far back would that go? T-34s in 1989?) depots?

 

How often did the Reservists mobilize and train? Or were they expected to function with 5-10 yo training and a hasty refresher? What kind of Leadership would these units have?

 

Falken

Edited November 9, 2007 by SCFalken

[konev]

Falken,

 

The Russian letter "b" is the Latin for "B", the 2nd letter in the Russian alphabet. These divisions would require only 72 hours to mobilize for combat. Reading into now open source OB's, usuallt what happened was that 1 Regiment did not exist on the active duty, along with the apportioned Division assets. When the mobilization order came, there were a select few officers and NCOs delagated from among the Division and within the Military District to provide the cadre. The remainder of the unit would come from reservists (those that had served within the last two years). The was no pre-mobilization training for these reservists.

 

The Russian letter "B" (or latin for "V"), is the the 3rd letter in the alphabet. These are the equivalent of the Category C Divisions. Usually 2 Regiments and sometimes a 3rd, along with support troops, were inactive. The mobilization cadre coming from a mixture of active duty and Reservists with the remainder of the Regiments filled out by draftees.

 

There was another category of Divisions. The "Reserve" Divisions (both MRD and TD). They were mobilization only formations and composed completely of Reservists and older equipment. It is presumed they would be ready for operations within 3-4 months and used soley for rear-area operations.

 

By 1989, most if not all of the late-WW2 equipment in storage had been replaced by those produced in the 1950s. One of the exceptions being the T-34/85s. Although the hull had become useless by then, a large number of the gun turrets on the Chinese border had the turrets mounted on concrete slabs and used as pillboxes (this is where a large number of the MG Artillery units were).

 

konev

[Darth Stalin]

And at least one tank division in Ukraine (IIRC from the 1st Guards Army... or 6th Gds Tank Army) was completely equipped with 300+ T-10M heavy tanks... while other divisions of that army had T-54/T55 tanks.

[konev]

Darth,

 

This had to be before 1989. By 1990, the best candidate would have been the 14th Guards Tank Division, part of the 6th Guards Tank Army.

 

By 1990, the Division had been disbanded and all of its tanks withdrawn. In addition, by 1990 all of the Divisions still left were re-equipped with T-64s. This is surprising since the T-80s were rolling off the assembly line.

 

More than likely, the T-64s came from the Independent Tank Regiments withdrawn by 1990 from the GSFG. Not only the T-10s, but also the T-54/55s were all gone by 1990.

[Darth Stalin]

Yes, I know that; just hadn't the info which one...

 

And when looking into Feskov's book, together with comparing it with Lenski's (Lenski's data I have from battlefield.ru or sth similar; it was also published on Brinkster's website before it has been closed) one can see there were many hundreds of tanks in BTRZs => possibly to be scrapped or so?

For example, when looking into Leningrad MD's units it can be seen that in the MD's BTRZs there were tanks for some 2 full divisions; and the real divisions were quite "cut down" to something called "northern limited standard", with only tank battalion (of T-80s) and a PT-76 company per MR regiment, with Tk Regt disbanded/reformed into that battalion.

So I think that the divisions in the far North before the cuts probably had: 1 x tk regt (90+ tanks), 3 x MR regt (with 1 battalion of PT-76s, 40 vehicles); possibly also indep tk battalion, but that's not sure.

 

Konev, one more VERY important question about Group of Soviet Forces in Germany:

When reading thru all these data on Soviet Army I found that every Army (or almost every...) had, as arty support, an arty brigade (sometimes regiment) and MRL regiment (mostly BM-21 Grad, sometimes 9P138 Grad-P on ZiL-131 instead of Ural-375 chassis).

However, in the East Germany I can't see not a single MRL regiment on Army level! It looks really weird! And seems that the only MRLs were integrated in MRLs battalions in divisions (18 Grads per division); plus a single 9P140 Uragan brigade within the 34th Arty Div.

Could you tell me, whether there were Army-level MRL regts in GSVG? Or maybe they were integrated as battalions in the Army Arty Brigades?

 

So far noone could help me with that matter.

 

And maybe one more question:

The 120th GdsMR Division stationed in Byelorussia was in mid-80s reformed into 5th Gds Indep Corps, with 2 tank bdes and 2 mech bdes (possibly about 1984 the transformation was complete). In late 80s (possibly 1989-90) it was reconstructed back into 120th MR Div.

Can you tel me the OOB of this unit during its existence as a 4-bigade Corps?

regimental structure "after" is known to me; I suppose the regts "before Corps-making" were the saem, but don't know their equipment.

However, what was the brigade structures? I.e. what battalions were in bdes and how many of them?

[stimson47]

A couple of quick points I've picked up about the Soviet mobilization scheme. According to some of the recent work on the Soviet Army, it actually had a great deal of difficulty in mobilizing the B & C units when it carried out exercises, or in real crises (such as Afghanistan & Poland 1981). The Russian General Staff study on the War in Afghanistan noted that it was only with an enormous amount of difficlty (and scrapping together units) that the 40th Army was able to mobilze the required number of divisions for the invasion in 1979 (excluding the airborne forces). A source I read (which I need to find...) a few years ago also noted that the Soviets had trouble mobilizing ten divisions during the 1981 Polish crisis.

 

Now, maybe it's easy to dismiss the Afghanistan difficulty because the 40th Army mobilized in the Turkestan Military District, but the Polish crisis example is a bit more disturbing considering that the Western Military Districts were the main reserve for Central Europe. Of course no mobilization plan is perfect, but it seems that this may have been a potential source of trouble for the Soviets if it came to a shooting war with NATO.

 

I guess the question is, how realistic were Soviet mobilization plans?

[konev]

The reason the Soviets had trouble mobilizing for Afghanistan was the fact that no general mobilization order was issued for the TurkMD.

 

All of the mobilization orders were issued by the MoD (about 50,000 total). This figure probably also included the already active duties forces there (the 5th Guards and 108th MRD).

 

The HQ for the 40th Army didn't start forming from the staff of the TurkMD HQ until 13 December, 12 days before the invasion.

 

If I were a betting man, the 5th GMRD and the 108th MRD were probably the most capable units available (probably a low Cat . Its probably a sure bet that the mobilization of units began shortly after 13 Dec and completing (at least for the 1st echelon) by about 22-23 December. The 108th was getting funneled down one corridor in eastern Afghanistan towards Kabul. It wasn't until the 27th that the first elements of the 5th Guards crossed the border in western Afghanistan.

 

Source: The Soviet-Afghan War: How a Supowere Fought and Lost

 

konev

[CV9030FIN]

Source: The Soviet-Afghan War: How a Supowere Fought and Lost

 

Sorry, but do you have any aditional info about that book (ISBN and author would be good enough)

[Meyer]

Sorry, but do you have any aditional info about that book (ISBN and author would be good enough)

 

http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/070061186X/00...GWETQZXMXGFNN02

[Kensuke]

IIRC, 8th Guards Army was entirely Cat A. But then, that would only make sense.

 

One thing I've never understood is that if the units that went into Afghanistan were all Cat A, why did they have Cat C equipment?

 

- John

[konev]

Kensuke,

 

No. Only the Guards Airborne Division was a peacetime Category A. The rest were either Category B or C.

 

You have to remember, the Categories refer to the peacetime strength and equipment. They were mobilized to the wartime strength in personnel, but still retained the equipment.

 

konev

[Hellfish6]

Not to go too OT, but did you ever finish those Soviet/Warpac orders of battle, Konev? I have the first one you did and it's great, don't know if I missed the rest of them.

 

Did the Soviets use rotating readiness categories? I guess what I'm asking is if in the 8th Guards Army or any other unit along the inter-European borders rotated the divisions that were in the A readiness category (meaning full strength, ready to go right away) with other divisions within the army every few months (so the former A division could absorb new conscripts, go out to the field for training, etc.) and the next division would be the "ready" division. Kind of like how the US Army works with ready brigades or the Marines work within their MEU rotations.

[konev]

Hellfish,

 

Sorry, WarPact Ob is on hold for a long while. Read the thread about the Soviet Penal Battalion and you will see why.

 

No, the Grand Soviet Army did not use da Amerikanski style of rotating units. Personnel only were rotated. The only time equipment was rotated was when new ones came in to replace old.

 

There was no "ready" regiment or division. Everybody was ready for combat withing 24 hours. (OT: Given what I saw during my time, that was true). You have to remember, the Soviet Army Divisions were smaller and had a semi-annual routine year in and year out. Plus, given a 6-month for 2-year draftees, it was better to spread out the draftees among the units (25% of each unit) that have them concentrated all in one. The bad side of that was the harassment of the new draftees by the older soldiers.

 

Just because the Americans did it did not mean the Soviet Army should replicate it also.

 

konev

[ShotMagnet]

...what I saw during my time, that was true.

When were you in? Curious not because I'm keen to gainsay, but to see how this might reflect on the thing I'm talking about in the CW resupply thread.

 

 

Shot

[konev]

I was there '83-86 in Frankfurt a/M.

 

My life expectancy in the war would have been about 2 minutes BEFORE the artillery started dropping.

 

You seen, I was in a primary target area for a SCUD-1/SS-20/fill-in-missle system here. And since Division Commanders had authority to use nuclear weapons, you get the idea.

 

Hey, at least that was better than being at Fort Carson. You know, that US Army post right at the base of of the mountain where the Air Force had put up those bright and shinny lights about a third up and called it the Cheyenne Mountain Complex (aka NORAD).

 

konev

[Hellfish6]

Hellfish,

 

Sorry, WarPact Ob is on hold for a long while. Read the thread about the Soviet Penal Battalion and you will see why.

 

No, the Grand Soviet Army did not use da Amerikanski style of rotating units. Personnel only were rotated. The only time equipment was rotated was when new ones came in to replace old.

 

There was no "ready" regiment or division. Everybody was ready for combat withing 24 hours. (OT: Given what I saw during my time, that was true). You have to remember, the Soviet Army Divisions were smaller and had a semi-annual routine year in and year out. Plus, given a 6-month for 2-year draftees, it was better to spread out the draftees among the units (25% of each unit) that have them concentrated all in one. The bad side of that was the harassment of the new draftees by the older soldiers.

 

Just because the Americans did it did not mean the Soviet Army should replicate it also.

 

konev

 

Thanks for the info. I didn't mean to imply that the US system was best, just didn't know how the Soviets worked it.

[Darth Stalin]

Hey, konev, where can I get the Soviet/WarPact OoB You made?

[Perun]

On 11/9/2007 at 7:59 PM, Darth Stalin said:

And at least one tank division in Ukraine (IIRC from the 1st Guards Army... or 6th Gds Tank Army) was completely equipped with 300+ T-10M heavy tanks... while other divisions of that army had T-54/T55 tanks.

Do you have data for that?

I only found this

https://www.ww2.dk/new/army/td/78td.htm

and another one with IS-3 and T-34-85 which I cant find now

 

[Perun]

On 11/21/2007 at 8:36 PM, Darth Stalin said:

Hey, konev, where can I get the Soviet/WarPact OoB You made?

Did anyone saved his work

[PCallahan]

On 12/31/2023 at 11:10 AM, Perun said:

Did anyone saved his work

I believe these are posted on my old website, microarmormayhem.com, on the left side under the NATO stuff.

[Perun]

3 hours ago, PCallahan said:

I believe these are posted on my old website, microarmormayhem.com, on the left side under the NATO stuff.

Thanks mate 😀

And nice page, one of my first sources of interesting documents

Edited January 2 by Perun

[Mykola Saichuk]

On 11/9/2007 at 8:59 PM, Darth Stalin said:

And at least one tank division in Ukraine (IIRC from the 1st Guards Army... or 6th Gds Tank Army) was completely equipped with 300+ T-10M heavy tanks... while other divisions of that army had T-54/T55 tanks.

No, the Kiev MD had 600+ T-10 and T-10M tanks for two cadres of reserve tank divisions.

[Darth Stalin]

23 minutes ago, Mykola Saichuk said:

No, the Kiev MD had 600+ T-10 and T-10M tanks for two cadres of reserve tank divisions.

Hello, Myjkola!

TODAY I know that; THEN in 2007 I was NOT so wise... 

BTW: do You know, which reserve tank divisions these were?

[Stuart Galbraith]

Just of a matter of interest, how late did they hold onto them?

[Darth Stalin]

IIRC until early 90s. Officially retired from service in 1993 and all in storage were scrapped by 1996.