Cold War British Army - would they form any additional tank squadron(s) during mobilisation?

[LouieD]

44 minutes ago, Darth Stalin said:

Okay, once more thanks a lotr for answer!

So, there could be:

1) 3-sqn regt for 19th Inf Bde - 1 left for 1st Inf

The Tidworth based Armd Regt went to the Continent w/ 19 IB, one Armd Sqn went to UKMF w/ 1 IB, correct

2) 2 sqns from Bovington to 1st Inf so the UKMF/1st Inf would also have 3-sqn regt

There were indeed 2 Sqns at Bovington (another 2 Sqns at Catterick providing manpower to the RAC Training Regt) providing the manpower for the RAC Centre Regt, ie Training, on TTW they would form the bulk of the Corps Armd Delivery Regt. However if there was a build up to war DRAC would have lobbied hard to turn it into a full fledged Armd Regt (do not underestimate the Regimental System !)

3) 2 sqns left in Bovington - could be filled with 1 sqn from HCMR to have another 3-sqn regt for "143rd Inf Bde"

See above, only 2 Sqns at Bovington, HCMR had a KP (Key Point) guard role in London District. It was intended to make it a MHD (Military Home Defence) Recce Regt (2 Sqns) for London District/56th London Bde equipped with Land Rovers.

this leaves 1 sqn of the HCMR to be either CVR(T) or Chieftain sqn to support 56th "Guards" bde in London.

See above

IMVHO 143rd bde could either join UKMF in Jutland or replace 33rd Armor bde in BAOR that was to support the Belgians.

No, 143rd West Midlands Bde was strictly a Military Home Defence Bde for Western District. I will expand further on Jutland below......

And 56th Gds Bde could have some 3 x regts on FV432 with another 1-2 truck mounted, with 1 sqn of Fox, 1 sqn of Chieftains and 1 x 105mm Light Gun battery.

London Dist/56th London Bde would have several HSF (Home Service Force) Coys, the HCMR and initially some Guards Bns. King's Troop RHA at St.John's Wood was a MHD KP Coy, no guns (except if you count their 13 pdrs). As I said 1 Guards Bn and the wheeled (FOX equipped) Sqn of the Regt at Windsor would form a Bn Gp for Royal Family escort/protection.

The COGRAM Bdes (two) that I mentioned in an earlier post were initially intended to reinforce/rotate into BAOR in the event of a rising period of tension. However though there theoretically was enough older Chieftains/FV432s to equip them it was decided to use these two COGRAM Bdes as light scaled reserves for UKLF  to replace 5 Abn Bde that had a MHD role, OOA role, & was one of SACEUR's Reserves. The COGRAM Bdes were planned on having 4 Regular (most likely the 4 Guards Bns in the UK) & 2 TA Bns between them. This would release 5 Abn Bde from that commitment. Finally the only other Bde planned, & again it would be light scaled was post-1997 when Hong Kong was given back. The Gurkhas would move to the UK en masse as 48th Gurkha Bde w/ 3x Gurkha Bns (1x Bn w/5 Abn Bde) & supporting Arms & Services.

As Stuart & Retac stated early, all those Chieftains, of all Mks,  not in service were designated WMR (War Maintenance Reserves). BAOR was already keen to stock REME & RAOC units that serviced Challengers with parts for Chieftains because they knew that most likely after the first week the Challenger equipped Regts were going to be partly or wholly Chieftain equipped.

 

 

 

[Darth Stalin]

Okay, so wasn't there any chance to:

1) expand the tank force of the UKMF/1st Inf Bde to 3x sqns of Chieftains

and

2) have the Bovington& Catterick regiment to field a 3-sqns full regiment available to form another Briigade ready to deploy to the Continent?

And also:

given that the 143rd Bde was to be wholly Home Defence-role, could there be any other brigade formed from any "leftovers"?

As "leftovers" I mean 3 x inf bns equipped with Saxons that were not the part of neither 1st nor 19th Bdes, i.e:

- 1st Bn, The Duke of Wellington's Regiment - (from 143rd (West Midlands) Inf Bde) - Tern Hil

- 2nd Bn, The Royal Green Jackets - (from 2nd (Southeast) Inf Bde) - Dover

- 1st Bn, The Queen’s Lancashire Regiment - (from 42nd (Northwest) Inf Bde) – Weeton Barracks, Preston (replaced 3rd Bn, The Light Infantry, previously in 24th Airmobile Bde)

As I read, there were enough Individual Reserve former RAC troopers and officers which ended their service early enough to be called upon and:

1) form an additional Chieftain sqn  for B&C RAC Centre regt

2) replace the cadre of RAC Centre in the remaining 3 sqns of that regt so that

-> 3) there could be fielded a 3-squadron strong tank regiment as a core of a "surplus" Mech bde and 

-> there would remain cadres to train/refresh any replacements that would be sent to the Continent

 

BTW: I was thinking about 143rd Bde, as it seems that its units could almost entirely go to BAOR in TTW:

- 4th (V) Bn, Worcestershire & Sherwood Foresters – Redditch: Light Role; to BAOR upon mobilization

- 1st Bn, The Duke of Wellington's Regiment – Tern Hill: MECH INF BN (WHEELED) (if used to form a "surplus" bde then it goes to war anyway)

- Queen’s Royal Irish Hussars – Bovington & Catterick 3/88 (RAC Centre Regiment); to BAOR, Paderborn 4/90, replaced with 2nd Bn, the Royal Tank Regiment (if used to form a "surplus" bde and strengthen UKMF then it goes to war anyway, even if leaving cadres as RAC CR)

So, assuming that MoD decides to "beef up UKMF" and field another "heavy" Mech Bde, would it be plausible to do this the way I'm thinking about?

 

BTW2:

well the COGRAM bdes could field not only the Guardsmen from 56th, IMVHO; if the REgulars would go back home from Ulster, there could also be:

- in 8th Bde: 1st Bn, The Gloucestershire Regt, 02/90 replaced with 1st Bn, The King's Regiment

- in 39th Bde: 1st Bn, The Royal Welch Fusiliers, 09/89 replaced with 1st Bn, The Black Watch

                         3rd Bn, The Queen's Regiment,  03/90 replaced with ??? (it went to Cyprus)

- in 3rd Bde: 1st Bn, The Worcestershire and Sherwood Foresters Regiment

               and (though being part of 5th Bde?) 1st Bn, Royal Regiment of Fusiliers

of course we must remember that:

- 3rd bn, The Parachute Regt would also (I presume) join the rest of the 5th Bde

- 4th & 5th bns, The Royal Irish Rangers (TA) would already be deployed to BAOR 

[LouieD]

3 hours ago, Darth Stalin said:

Okay, so wasn't there any chance to:

1) expand the tank force of the UKMF/1st Inf Bde to 3x sqns of Chieftains

That was the plan if they exercised the "Tidworth Option" and converted the Armd Recce Regt to Armd.

and

2) have the Bovington& Catterick regiment to field a 3-sqns full regiment available to form another Briigade ready to deploy to the Continent?

The Bovington/Catterick Regt was earmarked to form the core of the Armd Delivery Regt for 1 BR Corps, now knowing Corps/Regimental politics, and given a period of tension leading to war.....my personal opinion is that they could and would have reformed into an Armd Regt. Now you don't need them to go to a new Bde, they could just as easily become part of an existing one in BAOR.

And also:

given that the 143rd Bde was to be wholly Home Defence-role, could there be any other brigade formed from any "leftovers"?

As "leftovers" I mean 3 x inf bns equipped with Saxons that were not the part of neither 1st nor 19th Bdes, i.e:

- 1st Bn, The Duke of Wellington's Regiment - (from 143rd (West Midlands) Inf Bde) - Tern Hill

NOT Saxon equipped, it was a Type B MHD Bn

- 2nd Bn, The Royal Green Jackets - (from 2nd (Southeast) Inf Bde) - Dover

WAS Saxon equipped, its TTW role was to assist the flow of reinforcements on the MSR from the Channel ports to the Corps area. After that they would  have been used to reinforce existing formations. I have seen one suggestion from Official documents that it would go to 1 Armd Div and assist the Para Regt Gp.

- 1st Bn, The Queen’s Lancashire Regiment - (from 42nd (Northwest) Inf Bde) – Weeton Barracks, Preston (replaced 3rd Bn, The Light Infantry, previously in 24th Airmobile Bde)

Ths was the only Bn in 24th Bde equipped with Saxon, most likely would not stay with the Bde as they were equipped differently and most likely would be used as a QRF by 2 ID.

There were only 8 Saxon equipped Bns, the six in 1 & 19 IBs, the Dover Bn, & the Weeton Bn. Though the Saxon buy was initially 10 Bns. When 24 IB became Airmobile those two Bns worth of Saxons were distributed around to who needed them.

As I read, there were enough Individual Reserve former RAC troopers and officers which ended their service early enough to be called upon and:

1) form an additional Chieftain sqn  for B&C RAC Centre regt

2) replace the cadre of RAC Centre in the remaining 3 sqns of that regt so that

-> 3) there could be fielded a 3-squadron strong tank regiment as a core of a "surplus" Mech bde and 

-> there would remain cadres to train/refresh any replacements that would be sent to the Continent

Anything can be done, the Chieftain numbers were there but I am just relating what the Plans were.

So, assuming that MoD decides to "beef up UKMF" and field another "heavy" Mech Bde, would it be plausible to do this the way I'm thinking about?

 

BTW2:

well the COGRAM bdes could field not only the Guardsmen from 56th, IMVHO; if the REgulars would go back home from Ulster, there could also be:

- in 8th Bde: 1st Bn, The Gloucestershire Regt, 02/90 replaced with 1st Bn, The King's Regiment

- in 39th Bde: 1st Bn, The Royal Welch Fusiliers, 09/89 replaced with 1st Bn, The Black Watch

                         3rd Bn, The Queen's Regiment,  03/90 replaced with ??? (it went to Cyprus)

- in 3rd Bde: 1st Bn, The Worcestershire and Sherwood Foresters Regiment

               and (though being part of 5th Bde?) 1st Bn, Royal Regiment of Fusiliers

of course we must remember that:

- 3rd bn, The Parachute Regt would also (I presume) join the rest of the 5th Bde

- 4th & 5th bns, The Royal Irish Rangers (TA) would already be deployed to BAOR 

All the Ulster Bns would come back and be assigned MHD duties

 

[Darth Stalin]

Okay, again thanks a lot! I'm only surprised with the number of Saxon battalions - always thought there were 9 of them! 

BTW:

in case the "Tidworth option" was executed, where would come from the Recce sqn to support AMF(L)? The HCR would provide ony 3 - 3 x tracked to 3rd RM and 5th Para + 1 wheeled to Royal Family. But what with AMF(L)?

Would they leave 1 sqn just for that purpose or drag it from elsewhere?

And why here were only 8 Saxon-equipped bns? Lack of funds or something else? 

Do you know which were those 2 battalions that did not receive it, but were to be Saxon-equipped too?

This sems surprising, as Appendix B to Your magnificent work shows 10 Saxon battalions...

 

Anyway, it seems that the Army tried to cover anything it could with ever thinner layer of butter, not being able (allowed to?) increase the volume of butter...

 

And BTW2:

why the King's Troop would not be mobilized with guns? There were not enough 105mm Light Guns in the inventory? That would be surprisng...

Edited September 14, 2020 by Darth Stalin

[WRW]

May be a silly question but how were these heavy tracked units going move around other than local to their base location?

[Stuart Galbraith]

Which is why I wondered how many tank transporter units we had in the UK in this period. They would be busy moving all those vehicles up to the coast. Its not like we could carry them via rail (well, at least not the tanks anyway)

[WRW]

Also somebody has to mind the castles. Plenty of possible saboteurs and like minded undesirable.. inc IRA GRU tourists etc

[WRW]

The HSF could be extremely busy 

[LouieD]

8 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Which is why I wondered how many tank transporter units we had in the UK in this period. They would be busy moving all those vehicles up to the coast. Its not like we could carry them via rail (well, at least not the tanks anyway)

Stuart,

Just 414 Tank Transporter Unit at Bulford (conveniently near the Tidworth based Armd Regt) I’ll get you numbers when I get home. Between them and a mass usage of commercial HGVs  (I have seen pics CVR (T) family vehicles on the back of civilian vehicles for Ex Lionheart) which would get everything down to Marchwood and the other Channel ports. 414 would then travel over to the Continent.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Thats interesting, I wasnt aware we had hired civilian hauliers for Lionheart. Well that makes a lot of sense really.

[WRW]

Are the Gurkha Demonstration companies included?

Might get a company worth of officers out of Whitehall?

 

most here know Arrse - these might interest

https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/cold-war-photos.253986/

Edited September 15, 2020 by WRW
Forgot line and added link to Arrse

[LouieD]

5 hours ago, WRW said:

Are the Gurkha Demonstration companies included?

Might get a company worth of officers out of Whitehall?

 

most here know Arrse - these might interest

https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/cold-war-photos.253986/

The two Gurkha Coys would be Bridge Demolition Guards on the Leine in the 1 Armd Div area, I was going to update this in the next version along with the GDP of the Para Regt Gp

[LouieD]

On 9/13/2020 at 11:55 PM, Darth Stalin said:

Okay, again thanks a lot! I'm only surprised with the number of Saxon battalions - always thought there were 9 of them! 

BTW:

in case the "Tidworth option" was executed, where would come from the Recce sqn to support AMF(L)? The HCR would provide ony 3 - 3 x tracked to 3rd RM and 5th Para + 1 wheeled to Royal Family. But what with AMF(L)?

I currently don't have that information but I would guess they would use one of the HCR Sqns at Windsor (remember the Regt as a whole fell under command of 5 Abn Bde, one Sqn (with FOX) would be Royal Family Protection, leaving the other two for 5 Abn Bde & possibly 3 Cdo Bde)

Would they leave 1 sqn just for that purpose or drag it from elsewhere?

See above, the UK commitment to AMF (L) was for one Armd Recce Sqn so unless another NATO country picked that commitment up they would of had to find that from somewhere.

And why here were only 8 Saxon-equipped bns? Lack of funds or something else? 

War Plans, plain and simple.......the original buy was for 10 to equip 1, 19, & 24 IBs plus the Dover Bn. There was planned to be another order of 420 (see my document) but it was cancelled to buy another CR1 Regt. The extra SAXONS would, most likely equip some of the TA Bns of 2 ID. There was much discussion of recruiting HGV qualified men for this. 

Do you know which were those 2 battalions that did not receive it, but were to be Saxon-equipped too?

This sems surprising, as Appendix B to Your magnificent work shows 10 Saxon battalions...

The two Bns of 24 IB that became Airmobile Bns lost their SAXONS. The surplus was used to reinforce the remaining 8 Bns & FH-70 Btys that were assigned to BAOR. I mention in my appendix that the buy was for 10 Bns (thats from the Statement on Defence Estimates).

Anyway, it seems that the Army tried to cover anything it could with ever thinner layer of butter, not being able (allowed to?) increase the volume of butter...

That would be the British Army's "Way of War" so to speak !  The reality was the MOD was & is very cash strapped. For instance the Para Regt Gp formed in 1989 was successful and many wanted it to become a full fledged Bde but reading correspondence back and force you see how no one wanted to call it a Bde because they wouldn't get funding for it. It was to remain Group (earlier it was Task Force) to try to weasel funds and equipment into it.

And BTW2:

why the King's Troop would not be mobilized with guns? There were not enough 105mm Light Guns in the inventory? That would be surprisng...

There may have been enough Light Guns but its role in TTW was Military Home Defence, no guns needed. The only discussion I have seen is that Farndale wanted some gun Btys in the UK for Home Defence but the priority was MANPADS for Key Point defence. So any artillery units would most likely be equipped with Blowpipe/Javelin first.

 

Edited September 15, 2020 by LouieD

[demobbed]

On 9/14/2020 at 3:59 AM, LouieD said:

given that the 143rd Bde was to be wholly Home Defence-role, could there be any other brigade formed from any "leftovers"?

As "leftovers" I mean 3 x inf bns equipped with Saxons that were not the part of neither 1st nor 19th Bdes, i.e:

- 1st Bn, The Duke of Wellington's Regiment - (from 143rd (West Midlands) Inf Bde) - Tern Hill

NOT Saxon equipped, it was a Type B MHD Bn

- 2nd Bn, The Royal Green Jackets - (from 2nd (Southeast) Inf Bde) - Dover

WAS Saxon equipped, its TTW role was to assist the flow of reinforcements on the MSR from the Channel ports to the Corps area. After that they would  have been used to reinforce existing formations. I have seen one suggestion from Official documents that it would go to 1 Armd Div and assist the Para Regt Gp.

- 1st Bn, The Queen’s Lancashire Regiment - (from 42nd (Northwest) Inf Bde) – Weeton Barracks, Preston (replaced 3rd Bn, The Light Infantry, previously in 24th Airmobile Bde)

Ths was the only Bn in 24th Bde equipped with Saxon, most likely would not stay with the Bde as they were equipped differently and most likely would be used as a QRF by 2 ID.

There were only 8 Saxon equipped Bns, the six in 1 & 19 IBs, the Dover Bn, & the Weeton Bn. Though the Saxon buy was initially 10 Bns. When 24 IB became Airmobile those two Bns worth of Saxons were distributed around to who needed them.

1 QLR is my former Bn.  IIRC we took over in Weeton in April 1990. We were under local command of 42 Bde but we took on a new role under command of HQNI called the Province Reinforcement (or Reserve) Battalion operating mainly in 3 Bde's AOR, Coys doing 6 week rotations in and out of Cookstown, Dungannon, Portadown etc. I do not recall having any Saxons at Weeton.  

At this time the 3rd Inf Bn of 24 Bde was re-located to Alma Bks in Catterick (1 GLOSTERS I think). I know the intention was for this Bn to eventually be Airmobile but could it have been issued with the Saxons before hand?

Going off on a slight tangent, later in the decade we were based in Tidworth as a Saxon Bn in 1 Mech Bde, one of only four Saxon Bn's in 3 (UK) Div. Later still we moved to Catterick, again as a Saxon Bn at about the same time that 12 Mech Bde was re-forming. I remember ours and the other 3 Bn's having to give up a number of Saxons in order to equip the two new Saxon Bn's in 12 Mech Bde.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Thanks for that on the Glosters. My local Regiment, well it was before options for change.

Edited September 16, 2020 by Stuart Galbraith

[Darth Stalin]

Well, guys, you have lots and lots of knowledge of the Cold War British Army, and I’m astonished and grateful for sharing that.

Yet here’s another question, though related to the subject:

If the MoD was to send to the Continent, say, 2 x Brigade HQs in order to: a) take command of 5 x TA’s battalions of the BAOR Garrison Areas and form a third Bde for 2nd Inf Div (so it would have 15 x inf bns 2 x arty regts, 2-3 recon regts) and b) form an “ad hoc” Mech Bde to support BAOR with (as discussed above) 2 (optionally up to 3) Saxon bns and tank regt, which would there be?

143rd and 2nd (or any other?) from England or (as they were already operational) 3rd and 8th from UKNI (thus leaving the command of the Ulster forces to 39th and 107th formed in 1989)?

Yes, I know it’s being rather hypothetical, but I’m interested in the “way of thinking of the MoD during crisis, TTW and mobilization” of the late Cold War era.

Edited September 16, 2020 by Darth Stalin

[WRW]

From memory 107th Bde was a TA unit - cannot see them taking over internal security. Am indeed curious if any of the three regular brigade HQs would be sent to Europe - would they not be quite tailored in structure including being static units.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Oh I dont know, there was a long history of the TA undertaking internal security. My fathers old TA unit was the Royal Gloucestershire Hussars, and he told me his regiments role was internal security in the event of nuclear war. Something along the lines of going into strike zones, maintaining security, shooting looters, that kinda thing. He told me that during a showing of 'The War Game', which im rather grateful for or I would never have known. Quite why they gave them ferret armoured cars and training on rocket launchers, I dont know. I guess they were preparing for all contingencies.

They also had TA units providing radio support for the Regional Seats of Government, or so I heard in the Royal Signals Museum at Blandford Forum.

[WRW]

Indeed but the RGH had a specific role.

Also 3 Bde raised only 1988 to take pressure from other rwo

Question - what exactly would constitute a Brigade HQ?

Edited September 16, 2020 by WRW
Add on 3 bde info

[LouieD]

On 9/14/2020 at 5:37 PM, LouieD said:

Stuart,

Just 414 Tank Transporter Unit at Bulford (conveniently near the Tidworth based Armd Regt) I’ll get you numbers when I get home. Between them and a mass usage of commercial HGVs  (I have seen pics CVR (T) family vehicles on the back of civilian vehicles for Ex Lionheart) which would get everything down to Marchwood and the other Channel ports. 414 would then travel over to the Continent.

Stuart,

414 TK Tpt Unit had 22 Scammell Commanders on strength, so it looks like they would have had to do two movements to get all the tanks from the Tidworth Regt (19 IB) to Marchwood. They also had some Crusaders in strength for CVR (T), but I just remembered (I saw the picture while looking up 414) that the DROPS trucks could haul one CVR (T). So between them and commercial haulers I think it was all covered. Now from the Continental ports to the RCZ it looks like everything heavy would be moved via rail.

There was 125 Commanders purchased: 91 w/ 7 Tk Tpt Regt, 22 w/ 414 Tk Tpt Unit, 2 at Emblem Camp and finally 10 in WMR.

Edited September 16, 2020 by LouieD

[LouieD]

5 hours ago, WRW said:

From memory 107th Bde was a TA unit - cannot see them taking over internal security. Am indeed curious if any of the three regular brigade HQs would be sent to Europe - would they not be quite tailored in structure including being static units.

So far I have uncovered nothing relating to a TTW role other than IS/MHD for the three regular Bdes in NI. However my research has been stymied by COVID......now 107th Bde is interesting in that I know that in peacetime there was an effort to keep TA units in NI completely divorced from IS.

Edited September 16, 2020 by LouieD

[demobbed]

5 hours ago, WRW said:

Indeed but the RGH had a specific role.

Also 3 Bde raised only 1988 to take pressure from other rwo

Question - what exactly would constitute a Brigade HQ?

A Bde HQ is actually quite a hefty beast.  I can only comment on the ones I served as part of during the mid 90's and early 2000's, 1 and 19 Mech.  They were made up of the HQ staff and the supporting Sig Sqn.  All in about 200 pers and about 50 vehicles of various types, quite armour heavy.

Once deployed into the field the Main HQ comprised of the main bird table tent with the various command vehicles with penthouse tents backed onto it.  Each vehicle was a cell of the HQ e.g Int, Ops, Plans and so on and each run by an SO3. There were also attachments such as artillery, engineer and aviation cells.

There is also the Step Up HQ which is supposed to be near identical to the Main HQ but with less staff officers which is used to take command when Main is on the move. Those vehicles which are not part of step up usually join when Main passes.

Also included were a HQ for logistics, various rebro wagons and the rear echelon.

The Bde Commander also had a much smaller Tac HQ for when he wished to forward deploy.

I hope I've remembered this correctly after 20ish years and that it makes sense.

Edit: I did also serve as part of 3 and 8 Inf Bdes on Op BANNER but those HQ's were tailor made static HQ's.

Edited September 16, 2020 by demobbed

[WRW]

This is the result of having too much time on hand and an interesting subject

I cannot see the NI Bde HQs being deployable

Indeed in NI the TA was kept out of the COIN - I think there was a TAC raided or burned and maybe in a seperate incident a TA officer killed.

Cam across the following - you may know them https://coldwargamer.blogspot.com/2014/04/orbat-british-1980-bg-nato-and-baor.html

https://coldwargamer.blogspot.com/2014/08/orbat-1980s-british-bg-nato.html - this covers Saxons

https://coldwargamer.blogspot.com/2014/11/orbat-1980s-british-bg-nato.html

 

Some people may not be keen on Wargame references but I find such based research very readable

 

Question - why 414 TT Unit not 414 TT Squadron?

[demobbed]

Coldwargamer was my former OC, very clued up.

Edited September 16, 2020 by demobbed

[Darth Stalin]

Yes, I know that website; there's a lot of valuiable material as well as listing of various sources he used, that could be found in the internet or just purchased for an affordable price.