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Cold War British Army - would they form any additional tank squadron(s) during mobilisation?


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Interesting observation, id never heard that before. You have to wonder what a few Scuds would have done, dont you?

Ironically you wouldnt believe the scale of some of the hardened facilities in the UK. I once did a tour of an ammunition depot used for DDAY, built in an old stone mine carved into an extinct volcano on the outskirts of Bath. Fairly compared with Nordhausen at least as far as the area it covered.

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Apologies all, I did finish version 9 and forwarded to Hans (he is on Tanknet) who hosts it on his excellent site. I suspect he is away for the holidays so be patient. I am going to publish here my UKMF document this week, so stay tuned.

@Darth Stalin

to answer your original post question, I did receive some more documents concerning COGRAM. Apparently the plans put forward for two Bdes included an Armd Recce Sqn for each made up of reservists & RED RUM (Redistribution of Regulars Upon Mobilisation)  cadres to be equpped with Ferrets and I am guessing Saracens and any Saladins laying about. That's all I have for now, Tank Museum is closed so I am still waiting on answers from them.

Edited by LouieD
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@LouieD

I've been in touch with a few of the old and bold from 1 QLR. The Bn took over the PRB role from 2 SG in about September 1990, 2 SG took on the role after 3 QUEENS left Aldergrove. 1 QLR arrived in Weeton in about Feb 1990 and then underwent NI training and took on the role of PRB in September 1990 and was committed to this role until they left for Berlin in April 1992. The Bn was more or less a four rifle company battalion with the support platoons in name only and "definitely no Saxons!"

Edited by demobbed
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On 12/29/2020 at 6:22 PM, LouieD said:

Apologies all, I did finish version 9 and forwarded to Hans (he is on Tanknet) who hosts it on his excellent site. I suspect he is away for the holidays so be patient. I am going to publish here my UKMF document this week, so stay tuned.

@Darth Stalin

to answer your original post question, I did receive some more documents concerning COGRAM. Apparently the plans put forward for two Bdes included an Armd Recce Sqn for each made up of reservists & RED RUM (Redistribution of Regulars Upon Mobilisation)  cadres to be equpped with Ferrets and I am guessing Saracens and any Saladins laying about. That's all I have for now, Tank Museum is closed so I am still waiting on answers from them.

Hurrrah! Hail to The Louie!

Any ideas what numbers would these Bdes have?

BTW: where did the 16th Airmobile Bde number come from, when it was created i the 90s after amalgamation of 5th and 24th? Was that number wandering around in MoD papers or "just because" someone decided "well we have 15th so let's have 16th"? 

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Before 5 Airborne Brigade was formed, sometime under Wide Horizon I think so late 70's, there was a 16 Airborne Brigade. It was the formation that did the drop on Suez in 1956. 16 Brigade was a formation made from elements of 1st and 6th Airborne Divisions, so they kept the numbers together to show the history. So it was kind of understandable they readopted the Airborne number, presumably as a sop to the Airborne mafia for taking most of their parachutes away.

That is common in the British Army. For example a lot of the TA Brigades, for example 43 Brigade, adopted the badge and history of 43 Infantry Division. As far as BAOR, 11th Armoured Brigade adopted the badge and history of 11th Armoured Division, and 7th, whilst it was also a brigade in WW2 that fought in Armour in North Africa and Burma, was also adopting the history of the 7th Armoured Division, or Desert Rats. For that reason the Army begged Hammond not to disband it,but he didnt listen the clueless fuckwit.

Sigh. Thanks, I feel better for unloading that. :)

 

Great work for all that you gave me Louie, you are complete rockstar.

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On 1/5/2021 at 1:56 AM, Stuart Galbraith said:

Before 5 Airborne Brigade was formed, sometime under Wide Horizon I think so late 70's, there was a 16 Airborne Brigade. It was the formation that did the drop on Suez in 1956. 16 Brigade was a formation made from elements of 1st and 6th Airborne Divisions, so they kept the numbers together to show the history. So it was kind of understandable they readopted the Airborne number, presumably as a sop to the Airborne mafia for taking most of their parachutes away.

Stuart is correct.......however 5 Inf Bde was before 'Wide Horizon'..... in 1977  3 (UK) Division  and 16 Parachute Bde (16 to perpetuate 1 & 6 Abdn Divs) formed 6 Field Force. In 1982 8 Filed Force became 5 Inf Bde/5 Abn Bde (after the Falklands)

That is common in the British Army. For example a lot of the TA Brigades, for example 43 Brigade, adopted the badge and history of 43 Infantry Division. As far as BAOR, 11th Armoured Brigade adopted the badge and history of 11th Armoured Division, and 7th, whilst it was also a brigade in WW2 that fought in Armour in North Africa and Burma, was also adopting the history of the 7th Armoured Division, or Desert Rats. For that reason the Army begged Hammond not to disband it,but he didnt listen the clueless fuckwit.

Sigh. Thanks, I feel better for unloading that. :)

Exactly

Great work for all that you gave me Louie, you are complete rockstar.

Thank You !

I'll get a list of Bdes later today.

 

BTW Version 9 is now up ! Thanks Hans ! I'm still working on UKMF

https://www.orbat85.nl/documents/BAOR-July-1989.pdf

 

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This is wonderful! Thanks a lot, Louie!

 

BTW:

 

Quote

The RAC expected to have every regiment back up to the Type 57 establishment in the 1990’s (except for the in-Armd role Household Cavalry)

 

Would it mean, that:

1) Berlin Bde and Cyprus would have their "own", separate tank/recce sqns, with their "parent" regiments maintaining 57-tank structure?

2) the Bovington tank regt being 57-tank type?

3) Life Guards being a 57-tank regt with Chal 1?

 

BTW2:

if the above would be true (i.e. Berlin and Cyprus having their "own" sqns), AND "the Tidworth option" being introduced (i.e. with full 57-tank regiment instead of Recce regt with tank sqn), could it be, that... AN ADDITIONAL ARMORED REGT could be formed?

I mean, the "overseas deployment regt", say, "2nd RTR", with subordinate sqns deployed as follows:

a) 1 sqn to Cyprus (recce)

b) 1 sqn to Berlin (tank)

c) 1 sqn (recce) to AMF

d) 1 sqn (recce) to UKMF (if still requiring a recce sqn) or (tank) for Home Defence (say, with 56th London "Guards" Bde)

thus leaving the Bovington regt available for creation of a wartime "surplus" bde

 

BTW3:

Did the 107th Bde (under HQ NI) receive a wartime "deployment" role?

AFAIK the 3rd, 8th and 39th would either remain in NI or be moved to "main island", yet still remaining with Home Defence tasks.

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@Darth Stalin

Received some further information regarding the RAC in the late 1980's:

1) The Tidworth Option/Proposal  That I mentioned in another thread...

The Type 57 Armd Regt and the Armd Recce Regt, both at Tidworth, would combine assets to form:

- The UKMF Armd Regt with 3x Sqns of MBTs (43 MBTs)  and 1x Armd Recce Sqn with 16x Scimitar CVRT & 6x Striker CVRT (4 @ PE)

- 19th Inf Bde Armd Regt which was basically a Type 43 Armd Regt, however the AMF(L) Armd Recce Sqn would be its fourth Sqn

 

Now regarding the RAC Centre Regt & RAC Training Regt there was a study that was attempting to civilianize/contractoralize some manpower of both. This was strongly opposed by DRAC. Reading through the recommendations I was able to discover the following:

- The Armd Delivery Regt @ Bovington (a shadow organization, activated on TTW) which had an establishment of 96 Officers & 676 ORs, would immediately form 2x Category A (Regulars) WMR MBT Sqns (28 MBTs) which would go to BAOR (the MBTs were in store there) upon the START of TTW. Basically giving 1st BR Corps and additional two regular Armd Sqns. 

- Upon full mobilization, 12xWMR Armd Sqns would be formed from Reservists & REDRUM personnel. Again under command of the ADR.

- The RAC Training Regt, DRAC did not want to lose any personnel because it would not be able to fill establishment to a Type 57 Armd Regt

4AB's two Armd Regts had their fourth Sqns in Cyprus (easily can fly them back) and Berlin (not leaving there).

33 AB's Armd Regt (from the Household Cav) had only three Sqns.

So those to Category A would nicely fill out those Regts......

 

I don't have anything further at this time but will keep digging.

Edited by LouieD
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For Context:

The Queen's Royal Irish Hussars  July 1989  (RAC Training Regt/RAC Centre Regt)

Catterick

- Basic Military Training Sqn

- Trade Sqn (SHQ, D&M Wing, Signals Wing, Gunnery Wing)

- Support Sqn (SHQ, Vehicle Wing consisting of MBT Tp ; 45 MBTs, CVR (T) Tp, FFR Tp, MT Tp, & QM Dept)

-RHQ (with Regt Band and Pipes & Drums)

Bovington

-Vehicle Sqn (SHQ, Heavy Track Tp, Light Track Tp, MT Tp, Radio Tp, MT Tp, & MDT)

Lulworth

- Support Sqn (SHQ, Tank Tp = 5x Chieftains 8x Challengers; CVR Tp = 7x Scimitar, 3x Fox, 4x FV432; GW Tp = 6x Strikers; Warrior Tp = 8x Warrior (Inf manned); MT Tp)

The 45 tanks at Catterick were described as 'heaps' when QRIH first arrived but they got many running. There were also 10 Chieftain Mk 1s that were used only for driver training. The Support Sqn at Lulworth had true runners.

 

image.png.8b6f29fb8c5e0f1544567a7020c11766.png

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Louie, im currently working on a scenario for TOAW set in 1983. Have you seen anything that indicates any of these options were available earlier? I guess a displacement of Chieftains from Central Front made it more viable, but I cant see it would have provided more crews.

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Stuart,

No......1983  BAOR was still in flux re-organizing from the Task Force era. Introduction of the Challenger 1 gave the opportunity to start bulking up the RAC with Chieftains that were surplus. BTW it was expected to take 8-9 years to fully replace Chieftain and Challenger 1 with Challenger 2. RAC was trying to form a conversion team to speed up the process.  Ironically if they had chosen M1A2 or Leopard 2 the RAC thought it could convert units faster (especially the M1A2 option) by using existing American and German facilities and infrastructure!

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