Cold War British Army - would they form any additional tank squadron(s) during mobilisation?

[LouieD]

1 minute ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Thank you, that's fascinating, if never heard that before.

Stu, you and me both!!!! Eye-opening!!

[Stuart Galbraith]

Thank you for that Louie.

So, when is the book coming out, and can we preorder?

 

[Perun]

15 hours ago, LouieD said:

Stu, as I answered I still haven’t found anything related to re-raising specific Regts. I assume, based on the discussions I find in between official documents, that someone….somewhere brought up ideas. Though we have to recall that the British Army planned for a 10 day war (NATO planned/hoped for 30), so there may not be a specific list so to speak.

As for the Guards, the only thing I have found is that the HCMR was to be given Land Rovers FFR and become a MHD Recce for London District on TTW (they had been scheduled to provide two Inf Coys). The Problem with Guards Bns, which they found out in WW2, is that many Guardsmen were TALL (purposely recruited for their height in some cases, see Queen’s Coy 1 GG and POW Coy 1 WG) and the ergonomics of tanks did not cater to this, at least comfortably. Also the Guards were keen to get back to “real” soldiering after WW2 and the Guards Armd Div relinquished its tanks rather hurriedly.

Finally, I had always wondered why no “Guards Bde” was resurrected in the 1980’s, either in UKLF or BAOR. Little did I know, until I received the specific files from Kew, that the Guards  pushed for BOTH in the 1980’s and even came up with Arms Plot plans of when they could be accomplished. However Queen’s Regulations for the Household Div, which usurped the regular Army, called any Bde with “two or more Guards Bns” be designated a Guards Bde which would HAVE TO BE commanded by a Guards Officer. So one if not two Bdes would have to be set aside for exclusively Guards officers, which really did not enamor them to the rest of the Army. Obviously both attempts, UKLF and BAOR, came to naught because of this  AND as one commentator put it in correspondence that some of the Guards reasoning was so elitist that perhaps “it should not see the light of day!”.

 

Nice and interesting data, as allways

[niallroberthall]

On 12/29/2021 at 9:27 AM, Darth Stalin said:

Thanks, Louie; I've read that thread, yet I'm not sure how long would it take - would the Bovington/Catterick move (if ordered to do so) within those 48 hours? Or rather within 10 days? (10 days being the worst case, as it should gather all those reservists etc.).

And of course I know the Warminster Bn would have its wartime MHD role; just wonder, how long would it take to get it into the Continent if required/ordered to do so.

BTW:

He would take over the screening force immediately, as DRAC's representative in BAOR  this wouldn't have been much of a  stretch as he dealt with them daily, that's how the docs I have read. 

Okay; just wonder, if the BAOR staff manning was enough to (immediatel?) form the required brigade-level HQ (as it seems that would be necessary to command all those units?).

I'm a little late to the party, so to speak, on this subject; but in regard to the Brigade level HQ required to command the screening force, that, in effect, was already in place. I understand A5 Troop of 7 Signal Regiment were roled to provide the Corps Commanders TAC HQ, as well as HQ Screening Force and had another role in Live Oak. 

[LouieD]

Finally, after exhaustive research including discussing (more like annoying on my part) with the RAC Historian it looks like there were NO plans put on paper (that have survived) discussing SPECIFIC Regts to be formed after TTW. As I stated earlier:

1) the two possible COGRAM Bdes may have received an Armd Recce Sqn each

2) There was discussion of possibly forming one or two "small" Armd Regts, again it looks like COGRAM related, 30 days after mobilization AND as @Stuart Galbraith has pointed out, both probably staying in the UK, IF formed.

3) It WAS an aspiration and would correct the Cavalry/RTR imbalance to reform 5 RTR (which was an amalgamation of the 5th & 8th) which was disbanded in 1969. From what I found out the RTR (obviously) was keen on this BUT as of now I cannot find anything on paper re: discussions ...the RAC Historian (ex-RTR) checked.

4) There WAS discussion by DRAC/DASD & The Standing Committee on Army Organization in 1984, when the 12th Armd Regt for BAOR was being formed, there was an OPTION to raise another RAC Regt, which was pointed out would likely be "politically attractive" but the manpower was just not there to do this.

5) Finally, a little preview of my updated BAOR, specifically some GDP89 notes regarding the ADR 

GDP 89 Notes: 
    Upon TTW the RAC Training Regt and the RAC Centre Regt would each form two Category A (Regular) WMR Sqns (total of four) which would immediately deploy, at the start of TTW, to 1 BR Corps and draw WMR tanks from storage in Germany. A further Category A (Regular) Sqn, 2x Category B1 (Reservist) Sqns, 4x Category B (Reservist) Sqns, & 1x Category C (Reservist) Sqn would form after full mobilization. The 12 Sqns would be lettered A to L consecutively, if more MBTs are made available they will be made up into formed Sqns wherever possible and lettered M to Z consecutively. See Appendix B for detailed MBT numbers.

Category A (Regular) BAOR WMR Sqn (x5) (70 MBTs in store in BAOR)
-    Each 6 Offrs 58 ORs (55 RAC Crewmen ,2 RAC Non-Crewmen, & 1 RAMC). All RED RUM. 
Category B1 (Reservist) BAOR WMR Sqns (x2)  (28 MBTs in store in BAOR)
-    Each 6 Offrs 63 ORs (60 RAC Crewmen, 2 RAC Non-Crewmen, & 1 RAMC). All RED RUM except 27 RAC Crewmen IRs.
Category B2 (Reservist) UK WMR Sqns (x4) (56 MBTs found from the ITO)
-    Each 6 Offrs 58 ORs (55 RAC Crewmen, 2 RAC Non-Crewmen, & 1 RAMC). All RED RUM except 23 RAC Crewmen IRs.
Category C (Reservist) UK WMR Sqn (14 MBTs, CHALLENGER marks, found from the ITO)
-    6 Offrs 58 ORs (55 RAC Crewmen, 2 RAC Non-Crewmen, & 1 RAMC). All RED RUM except 22 RAC Crewmen IRs.  

Total WE: 98 Offrs 882 ORs
 

@niallroberthall Thank you for that information, it dovetails exactly what I have found in GDP89

CBSF role is to assume responsibility for surveillance along the IGB from the Bundesgrenschutz (BGS) and establish enemy intentions, axes of advance, etc. Once the Covering Force (CF) withdraws the BRAC/CBSF is to refurbish under command of 4 Armd Div and establish 1 BR Corps Tac HQ.

Edited December 7, 2022 by LouieD

[Stuart Galbraith]

RAC historian, that is Dick Taylor's job isn't it? He was talking about creating the job on a podcast the other day.

 

 

[LouieD]

1 minute ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

RAC historian, that is Dick Taylor's job isn't it? He was talking about creating the job on a podcast the other day.

 

 

Yes, I have annoyed him since July I think…….in reality we have been exchanging info which he has been great at! I say annoying because he is in the midst of completing his third volume on the history of the RAC, so was a bit busy.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Yeah, he said he was working on such a thing on the podcast.  Really am going to have to acquire that.

Cold War Conversations had a good episode on 1980s British Home Guard units if you didn't see it.

[LouieD]

Link please?

[Stuart Galbraith]

Should be the 6th one down, Britain's Cold War Dads Army.

https://www.buzzsprout.com/167223?client_source=large_player&iframe=true&referrer=https://www.buzzsprout.com/167223.js?container_id=buzzsprout-large-player&player=large#

[Perun]

Interesting stuff mates

[Intrepid_Hants]

On 12/7/2022 at 3:34 PM, LouieD said:

Finally, after exhaustive research including discussing (more like annoying on my part) with the RAC Historian it looks like there were NO plans put on paper (that have survived) discussing SPECIFIC Regts to be formed after TTW. As I stated earlier:

1) the two possible COGRAM Bdes may have received an Armd Recce Sqn each

2) There was discussion of possibly forming one or two "small" Armd Regts, again it looks like COGRAM related, 30 days after mobilization AND as @Stuart Galbraith has pointed out, both probably staying in the UK, IF formed.

3) It WAS an aspiration and would correct the Cavalry/RTR imbalance to reform 5 RTR (which was an amalgamation of the 5th & 8th) which was disbanded in 1969. From what I found out the RTR (obviously) was keen on this BUT as of now I cannot find anything on paper re: discussions ...the RAC Historian (ex-RTR) checked.

4) There WAS discussion by DRAC/DASD & The Standing Committee on Army Organization in 1984, when the 12th Armd Regt for BAOR was being formed, there was an OPTION to raise another RAC Regt, which was pointed out would likely be "politically attractive" but the manpower was just not there to do this.

 

Thanks for the update and taking the time for it. 

With 2 Household Cavalry units, 13 cavalry of the line, and 4 RTR regiments. Re-raising 5 RTR and perhaps 6 RTR would fit the argument of an imbalance (Who stated that there was an imbalance?). It is also the neatest and most simplistic option. None of the cavalry of the line regiments have ever had 2nd regiments and de amalgamating appears to not have been a possibility.  Which regiment in the armoured corps was the best recruited? 

Edited December 20, 2022 by Intrepid_Hants

[LouieD]

6 hours ago, Intrepid_Hants said:

Thanks for the update and taking the time for it. 

With 2 Household Cavalry units, 13 cavalry of the line, and 4 RTR regiments. Re-raising 5 RTR and perhaps 6 RTR would fit the argument of an imbalance (Who stated that there was an imbalance?). It is also the neatest and most simplistic option. None of the cavalry of the line regiments have ever had 2nd regiments and de amalgamating appears to not have been a possibility.  Which regiment in the armoured corps was the best recruited? 

@Intrepid_Hants of course the RTR felt there was an imbalance…….

I have the Inf numbers, I am trying to get the RAC ones.

[Darth Stalin]

Louie, great job!

However, I've the following questions:

Quote

GDP 89 Notes: 
    Upon TTW the RAC Training Regt and the RAC Centre Regt would each form two Category A (Regular) WMR Sqns (total of four) which would immediately deploy, at the start of TTW, to 1 BR Corps and draw WMR tanks from storage in Germany.

A further Category A (Regular) Sqn, 2x Category B1 (Reservist) Sqns, 4x Category B (Reservist) Sqns, & 1x Category C (Reservist) Sqn would form after full mobilization. The 12 Sqns would be lettered A to L consecutively, if more MBTs are made available they will be made up into formed Sqns wherever possible and lettered M to Z consecutively. See Appendix B for detailed MBT numbers.

Category A (Regular) BAOR WMR Sqn (x5) (70 MBTs in store in BAOR)
-    Each 6 Offrs 58 ORs (55 RAC Crewmen ,2 RAC Non-Crewmen, & 1 RAMC). All RED RUM. 
Category B1 (Reservist) BAOR WMR Sqns (x2)  (28 MBTs in store in BAOR)
-    Each 6 Offrs 63 ORs (60 RAC Crewmen, 2 RAC Non-Crewmen, & 1 RAMC). All RED RUM except 27 RAC Crewmen IRs.
Category B2 (Reservist) UK WMR Sqns (x4) (56 MBTs found from the ITO)
-    Each 6 Offrs 58 ORs (55 RAC Crewmen, 2 RAC Non-Crewmen, & 1 RAMC). All RED RUM except 23 RAC Crewmen IRs.
Category C (Reservist) UK WMR Sqn (14 MBTs, CHALLENGER marks, found from the ITO)
-    6 Offrs 58 ORs (55 RAC Crewmen, 2 RAC Non-Crewmen, & 1 RAMC). All RED RUM except 22 RAC Crewmen IRs.  

1) These 4 "immediately" formed squadons would consist the troopers already present in Bovington & Catterick? (i.e. from the Armoured Regt already present there? - if so, what would happen to that regt? would it be a mobilisation base for other squadrons?)

2) how long would it take to form these Cat B1 squadrons?

3) what is the ITO? are these the Chieftains being already used by the Armoured Regiment deployed (during its rotation) to Bovington/Catterick?

[LouieD]

Darth,

 

1) These 4 "immediately" formed squadons would consist the troopers already present in Bovington & Catterick? (i.e. from the Armoured Regt already present there? - if so, what would happen to that regt? would it be a mobilisation base for other squadrons?)

Yes, REDRUM (Redistribution of Regulars Upon Mobilization) would see the bulk of the Regt based at Catterick & Bovington form the Sqns and the Armoured Delivery Regt. 

2) how long would it take to form these Cat B1 squadrons?

Those two would be manned by ERE (Extra Regimentally Employed) regulars from all the Regts and IRs (Individual Reservists) who recently left the Colours. I can’t give you an exact number but I always look at the “10 rule of thumb” (ie things are based on 10 day warning times, 10 day mobilization, 10 day battle, etc.)

3) what is the ITO? are these the Chieftains being already used by the Armoured Regiment deployed (during its rotation) to Bovington/Catterick?

Individual Training Organization. Yes the Chieftains and Challengers being used for training at Catterick, Bovington, AND Suffield in Canada (there was a JTP to bring equipment back from BATUS as WMR)

Edited January 17, 2023 by LouieD

[LouieD]

Darth,

The four Cat A Sqns would immediately deploy, quickly followed by the fifth Sqn because 

1) needed three Sqns to refurbish the Covering Force once it withdrew. Plans assumed that the three CF Armd Regts would lose 14 MBTs each (two Regts in 7AB & the Regt from 4AD)

2) Assuming the Sqn detached to Cyprus made it back as per their JTP, the Armd Regt that provided the Berlin Sqn would need to be reinforced with a Sqn to replace it and the Household Cavalry Regt in BAOR only had three Sqns. If BRAC wanted to he could, upon TTW get all his Germany based Regts back up to Type 57.

 

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

Just want to drop something If I can. Cold War Conversations has had a lot of new stuff on lately. Firstly there was TWO episodes on Chieftain tanks, Id missed the first one which was more interesting about what it was like to face off against 3 Shock Army.

Secondly, there is two episodes on interviews with Brixmis personnel, which ive not listened to yet, but will presumably be of interest to many, not least myself.

https://coldwarconversations.com/

[Darth Stalin]

LouieD, as the RAC is pretty much covered thanks to Your Benedictine work (great respect!) 👌 I have one question regarding the Royal Artillery - what about their mobilisation units? (possibly batteries, nothing more?)?

I'm especially interested, how did they intend to use the FV433 Abbot? In 1989 there were 4 regiments (total 96 SPHs) of 146 produced for the British Army (that number Wikipedia says) - thus leaving some 50 for training and possible mobilisation.

There were also ~80 L118 Light Guns in storage - how about their planned mobilisation role?

Would the mobilisation basis be the 14th Field Regt, RA? (being the Training Support Regt of the Royal School of Artillery in Larkhill).

And what about the 47th Field Regt, RA? I couldn't find it in Your BAOR book, so what was its peacetime and wartime role? And what equipment did it have?

Edited January 18, 2023 by Darth Stalin

[madhon]

5 hours ago, Darth Stalin said:

47th Field Regt, RA? I couldn't find it in Your BAOR book, so what was its peacetime and wartime role? And what equipment did it have?

It was part of 1st Infantry Brigade/UKMF as far as i know

[Darth Stalin]

18 hours ago, madhon said:

It was part of 1st Infantry Brigade/UKMF as far as i know

It seems so - thanks, madhon!

[LouieD]

On 1/18/2023 at 5:28 AM, Darth Stalin said:

LouieD, as the RAC is pretty much covered thanks to Your Benedictine work (great respect!) 👌 I have one question regarding the Royal Artillery - what about their mobilisation units? (possibly batteries, nothing more?)?

I'm especially interested, how did they intend to use the FV433 Abbot? In 1989 there were 4 regiments (total 96 SPHs) of 146 produced for the British Army (that number Wikipedia says) - thus leaving some 50 for training and possible mobilisation.

There were also ~80 L118 Light Guns in storage - how about their planned mobilisation role?

Would the mobilisation basis be the 14th Field Regt, RA? (being the Training Support Regt of the Royal School of Artillery in Larkhill).

And what about the 47th Field Regt, RA? I couldn't find it in Your BAOR book, so what was its peacetime and wartime role? And what equipment did it have?

Darth,

I will get on the RA tonight for you..............

[Stuart Galbraith]

Glad to see you back Louie, I hope you are feeling better.

[Perun]

On 2/28/2023 at 3:28 PM, LouieD said:

Darth,

I will get on the RA tonight for you..............

Could you post it here please 🙂