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Cold War British Army - would they form any additional tank squadron(s) during mobilisation?


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As in title - here's the big question:

Were the British preparing (prepared?) to form any additional tank units during their mobilisation/transition-to war period?

As we know, they had a lot of Territorial Army units - which were almost exclusively light infantry on trucks, with some artillery (105mm towed), AA arty (towed guns and Blowpipe/Javelin) and some (3) wheeled armored car (Fox) recon regiments (i.e. battalions).

However, could they form additional tank sub-units, especially to strengthen the moblised brigades they had sub-units to create from? Say based, upon Bovington Centre, and recalled Reserve individuals, could the form an additional 3-4 tank squadrons + 1-2 Scorpion/Scimitar recon squadrons?

In UK they had 2 brigades to be sent into Continent - 19th Inf with 1 tank regt (3 sqns, 1 being with 1st Inf Bde) and =3 x Saxon-mounted inf bns as a third brigade for 4th Armoured Div in Germany and 1st Inf Bde (also with 3 x Saxon-mounted inf bns and 1 tank sqn from 19th bde's regt) to be sent to Denmark.

They also had, at their disposal, another 3 x Saxon-mounted inf bns (1 each in 143rd Bde, 2nd Bde and 24th Airmobile bde - later in 160th IIRC) and 1 x tank regt (also in 143rd bde, part of Bovington Center) - enough to form another mechanized bde during war.

Say, the Bovington Centre regt gives its 1 sqn to 1st Inf bde while retaining his 3 others, but could they form another ("reserve") sqn to beef-up the 1st Bde to 3-sqn force?

And there were also plans to form another bde from Ulster-rotated regular bns (with Saracen APCs) plus could also be attached "Infantry Demonstratoin Bn" with FV432 tracked APCs - yet that unit woul lack any recon or tank support.

So, could they (if the need arose) mobilize another 3 tank sqns for such a brigade, with a recon sqn?

That would require 4 tank and 1 recon sqns to be formed; this was entirely IMHO in their range, as those 56 Chieftains (at least) were available in storage, not to mention some 24 Scorpion/Scimitar CVR(T)s. That would require some 300 crewmen and some 300-400 more servicemen to support these vehicles (REME, weaponry etc.)

All in all - could they do that? And are there any ideas if there were such plans? 

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I dont think so. I think the most we envisaged was calling up TA soldiers to fill out the Germany bound units, but it appears they had some on hand to bring up to strength understrengh units. For example, if you search 'Operation Lionheart' on Youtube you will find someo f the British Forces Network reports on the Exercise. One of them has a Challenger 1 Regiment (which I think was the Royal Hussars before I check), and it had an officer who described being called up just for the exercise.

There was a redacted MOD report I read that described proceedures for bringing the Chieftains at Suffield home in the event of hostilities. But I think that was just enhancing the size of the pool of vehicles, it wasnt envisaged forming new units.

Im reminded of something John Nott said in his memoirs. He said part of the reason for forming an Airmobile Brigade (which latterly became 24 and later 16 Air Assault Brigade) was that they would have something they could bring back from Germany to defend Britain, if the central front collapsed and we presumably lost all of BAOR. In those circumstances I would suggest we would scrabble around training units to put something together to defend the country.

There are some other reports I saw, that described using the Bruin network Regiment at Blandford Forum as a NATO reinforcement, possibly an Abbot battery from Larkhill IIRC, and even some infantry from Northern Ireland (I guess that would appear to be the plans you heard of) Though I would guess that would get increasingly impractical as the 1970's dragged on. But ive seen nothing about forming armour units.

 

That doesnt mean it wouldnt have happened if the shit hit the fan. it just means if that did happen, no plan has come to light, that ive seen anyway.

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9 hours ago, Darth Stalin said:

As in title - here's the big question:

Were the British preparing (prepared?) to form any additional tank units during their mobilisation/transition-to war period?

As we know, they had a lot of Territorial Army units - which were almost exclusively light infantry on trucks, with some artillery (105mm towed), AA arty (towed guns and Blowpipe/Javelin) and some (3) wheeled armored car (Fox) recon regiments (i.e. battalions).

However, could they form additional tank sub-units, especially to strengthen the moblised brigades they had sub-units to create from? Say based, upon Bovington Centre, and recalled Reserve individuals, could the form an additional 3-4 tank squadrons + 1-2 Scorpion/Scimitar recon squadrons?

In UK they had 2 brigades to be sent into Continent - 19th Inf with 1 tank regt (3 sqns, 1 being with 1st Inf Bde) and =3 x Saxon-mounted inf bns as a third brigade for 4th Armoured Div in Germany and 1st Inf Bde (also with 3 x Saxon-mounted inf bns and 1 tank sqn from 19th bde's regt) to be sent to Denmark.

They also had, at their disposal, another 3 x Saxon-mounted inf bns (1 each in 143rd Bde, 2nd Bde and 24th Airmobile bde - later in 160th IIRC) and 1 x tank regt (also in 143rd bde, part of Bovington Center) - enough to form another mechanized bde during war.

Say, the Bovington Centre regt gives its 1 sqn to 1st Inf bde while retaining his 3 others, but could they form another ("reserve") sqn to beef-up the 1st Bde to 3-sqn force?

And there were also plans to form another bde from Ulster-rotated regular bns (with Saracen APCs) plus could also be attached "Infantry Demonstratoin Bn" with FV432 tracked APCs - yet that unit woul lack any recon or tank support.

So, could they (if the need arose) mobilize another 3 tank sqns for such a brigade, with a recon sqn?

That would require 4 tank and 1 recon sqns to be formed; this was entirely IMHO in their range, as those 56 Chieftains (at least) were available in storage, not to mention some 24 Scorpion/Scimitar CVR(T)s. That would require some 300 crewmen and some 300-400 more servicemen to support these vehicles (REME, weaponry etc.)

All in all - could they do that? And are there any ideas if there were such plans? 

Yes and no. As Stuart says, there were no ready tanks and battalions stored to do that, but the training units would be training replacements for the line units (hence why they cannot give up their tanks) and there was a substantial war reserve intended to keep up with the losses in the frontline brigades. Should these losses be less for whatever reason, additional units could be formed.

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If memory serves, we had about 580 Chieftain's deployed in West Germany and in the UK Based Regiments (there was at least one at Tidworth, which did a lot of the training schemes on Salisbury Plain). But we had in total about 900 Chieftains, so the balance of that  would all have been in war stocks. Kept in Dryclad if I remember rightly.

 

We were expecting to lose a LOT of tanks. And that I think is why the Army had its own ferry vessels, they knew they were going to have to push a lot of tanks forward in a hurry. Complete with crews I guess. I would presume they would prefer to have applied them in Squadron's, but I guess it would have depended on how bad things had got.

 

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Thanks again!

BTW, in the glorious work on BAOR:

https://www.orbat85.nl/documents/BAOR-July-1989.pdf

(that's the latest version; there were 2 previoous, each subsequent cotains more and more info and bibliography; excellent work indeed!) I've found something like this (page 115 of the PDF file):

Quote

In 1990 the British Army had, in service, 1,072 MBTs (426 Challenger 1 & 646 Chieftains) including WMR, Repair Pool, & Training. This was divided up as follows: (as planned for January 1992)

Chieftain 1x Type 43 Regt (17/21 L)= 43 tanks

5x Type 57 Regts (4/7 DG, Innis DG, 15/19 H, 1 RTR, & 4 RTR)= 285 tanks

1x Armd Sqn, Berlin (Sqn from 14/20 H) = 18 tanks (all Mk 10/C)

1x Armd Sqn, UKMF (Sqn from 17/21 L) = 14 tanks

Total = 360 tanks (286 WMR, Repair Pool or Training. This includes 2x Sqns worth at BATUS).

Challenger

3x Type 43 Regts (LG, RH, 14/20 H) = 129 tanks

4x Type 57 Regts (Scots DG, QRIH, QOH, & 3 RTR) = 228 tanks

Total = 357 tanks (69 WMR, Repair Pool, or Training) Note: The Royal Hussars fourth sqn would be providing the Garrison Armd Recce in Cyprus

The RAC expected to have every regiment back up to the Type 57 establishment in the 1990’s (except for the in-Armd role Household Cavalry).

Thus the original order for the replacement of Chieftain/Challenger (ie Challenger 2) was expected to be 800 tanks (727 in service plus 73 for non-operational roles).

Concerning this optimistic forecaste, I have included part of an email from the Staff at the RAC Museum: [b]“The only other information I have found dates back to 1987 and the concerns of DRAC that manpower problems were having an effect on 15 of the 19 RAC Regiments and that some were struggling to man all of their equipment in a Type 57 regt.[/b] There were also concerns regarding the introduction of Type 43 Regts and how these would be employed. In addition, DRAC had also been asked to consider whether troops should be re-organised into four tank troops rather than three tank troops. DRAC was still in favour of 3 tank troops.”

Thus IMHO one could expect, that if war broke ount, say, in 1989-90, there could be formed (from the reserve personnel) 2 x additonal squadrons armed with Chieftains (Life Guards and Royal Hussars) to be put as a support into any additional brigade formed up from "surplus" Regular inf bns taken out of Northern Ireland.

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Thanks Darth !!

That is my work (along with two other Tanknetters). I was about to respond to you and tell you to check my work to answer your question. In the mid ‘80’s the MOD came out with a report “COGRAM: Creation of a General Reserve After Mobilisation”. To be short and succinct they reckoned they could possibly form two additional Bdes with the surplus Chieftains/FV432 after introduction of CR1 & Warrior. However by the late 1980’s it seems that the two additional Bdes would be more of a Military Home Defence reserve (less all the heavy Armour). My colleagues and I have been trying to find information from the NA, MOD, RAC Museum about any plans for additional units but COVID has stymied our efforts. I did find some interesting information from the NA which I can post (just the document titles, I don’t have the complete docs).

One interesting find though was the “Tidworth Option” .....in a document dump I received an official document discussing how they were going to move UKMF/1 IB from a Zealand deployment Option to strictly S-H. The aforementioned Option was that instead of a CH Armd Sqn, they were exploring and option to convert the Armd Recce Regt at Tidworth to 3x Sqns of Chieftains & 1x Armd Recce Sqn. Thus the current CH Sqn would return to the Armd Regt supporting 19 IB (this was also at Tidworth). 
 

The HCMR (2x Sqns) we’re assigned a MHD KP guard role, it was envisioned that they would revert to a MHD Recce role for London District.

The HCR at Windsor would provide 1x Sqn to 5 Abn Bde, 1x Sqn to 3 Cdo Bde (possibly or AMF(L) if the Tidworth Option is exercised) and 1x Sqn as part of the Bn Gp which would be Close Protection/Escort to the Royal Family.

All the Resident Ulster Bns except one (which was designated as Province MHD Reserve) would come back to the mainland for MHD duties. There was thoughts of UDR Bns coming over also but it was decided they would all be needed in Ulster (late ‘80’s was approx 7,000 personnel, both full & part time, all 7,000 would have been put on active service on TTW)

 

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Oh Man! You're really good! And all those who supported You in that work!

What means the "MHD KP" abbreviation? It's not explained in the doc, and not-so-easily-self-explanatory... ;)

All in all, as I understood from the docs you provided (and also the pat Callahan's work), that:

1) the HCR at Windsor (Blues and Royals or Life Guards, depending on which one was CVR(T)-equipped and which one was in Tank role at the moment) would provide 1x Sqn to 5 Abn Bde, 1x Sqn to 3 Cdo Bde (both tracked) and 1x Sqn as part of the Royal Family Bn Gp

2) 1 x sqn to the AMF(L) would be provided by the same Recce Regt that would be attached to UKMF/1st Inf Bde destined for Jutland

3) UKMF/1st Inf Bde  woukld get 1 Tank sqn from the regt which would go with 19th Inf Bde (in 3-sqn composition) to 4th Armoured Div [in 1989 and 1990 it was The Royal Hussars (Prince of Wales’s Own)]

4) in Bovington would stay 1 x Tank Regt (seems to be in 4 x Sqn composition) [between March 1988 and April 1990 it was The Queen’s Royal Irish Hussars; then it was 2nd RTR]

Thus the Bovington regt could add 2 sqns to UKMF/1st Inf Bde and take back 1 Recon sqn from it, so the UKMF would have a full tank regt (with 3 sqns); so there could be formed a Mech bde (say, upon 143rd Bde) with 3 x Saxon bns (1st Bn, the Duke of Wellington's; 2nd Bn, the Royal Green Jackets  & 3rd Bn, The Light Inf or 1st Bn , The Queen's Lancashire) an a "Bovington tank regt" with 2 x tank sqns & 1 x CVR(T) sqn.

So, with formation of 1 x additional Tank sqn the "Bovington regt" would be at least "full" (i.e. with 3 tank squadrons). - which would be pretty much reasonable and available option (IMHO the easiest way to do it would be to convert 1 x HCMR Sqn from horses to Chieftains, with another one also on Chieftains to support the Guardsmen of the 56th Inf Bde in London)

And more so, in order to have another Mech bde, one would have to form addional 2-3 Tank sqns plus 1-2 CVR(T) sqns (roughly a Tank Regiment - possibly under the "command umbrella" of the Windsor's HCR, being stripped of all its component squadrons?)

 

BTW: at least 2 x Ulster-based Territorial Army regts would go to BAOR, which would leave some 5 x Regular Inf regts and 1 x Regular Para bn available to other duties. With Infantry Demo Bn (Warminster) that would definitely provide up to 6 x Mech (FV432?) bns to form some 2 x inf (Mech) bdes, which nevertheless would require at least 1 x tank and 1 x recce sqn per each Bde to be combat capable (even in Home Defence role), as it seems there could be problems with formation of any additional Arty units (batteries, forget about regiments; only the King's Troop could mobilize a battery of M119 Light Guns I presume, to support 56th Bde).

Edited by Darth Stalin
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What would happen reservist RAC people as against TA ?

Would there be any AFV in deep maintenance?

Any Centurions and Saladins ?

 

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I have a great deal of ignorance of how reservists were held in the British Army, its a subject im interested in but ive not really found a one stop shop to clear up all my questions. Im not sure there was any reservists outside the TA, I think that was the all encompassing arm. There are to be sure references to officers rejoining regiments in a crisis because they were reservists, but that would, i would have thought, meant they were TA. I thought we didnt really embrace a reserve till the British Army reserve was formed as a failed attempted to do it all on the cheap.

Thats my ignorance speaking. Id appreciate someone clearing that up.

I dont know about deep maintenance. If you mean those kept in reserve, then they had places like Ashchurch where they had tanks kept in dryclad to keep away nasty things like fungal bloom, and keep the vehicle in good order (Bear in mind with Chieftain, good order is a relative thing). Im not aware they did it with Challenger, I think they prefered to issue all those they got for obvious reasons.

We had Centurion till 1994 with the Royal Engineers, fulfilling the AVRE. Some were 105mm gun tanks, i think they had been reroled from Royal Artillery FO vehicles. The rest were 165's. Ive got this very nagging feeling we had some Saladin's on Cyprus till the 1990's, but I wont swear to that, it may be my fevered imagination again.

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Assuming a departure from service of say 10 % perannum. Am assuming some reserve commitment for these guys. That would give 20 % additional crews with reasonable familiarity with current equipment 

By deep maintenance I was thinking of base level rebuilding etc. What about equipment recently phased out, up for sale etc.

I also think saladin Sqd in Cyprus also maybe N I.

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The Military Balance 1992 gives a figure of 187,000 Regular Reserves and 72,000 TA.

It also quotes 426 (408)Challenger, 850 Chieftan (752), 38 Centurion I have no idea of what the bracketed numbers are.

1000 ferrets, 350 Fox and 13 Saladin - in IISS 1982 there were 243 Saladin

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12 hours ago, WRW said:

Assuming a departure from service of say 10 % perannum. Am assuming some reserve commitment for these guys. That would give 20 % additional crews with reasonable familiarity with current equipment 

By deep maintenance I was thinking of base level rebuilding etc. What about equipment recently phased out, up for sale etc.

I also think saladin Sqd in Cyprus also maybe N I.

Dont think they served Northern Ireland, they had a gun which was perceived as being a bit aggressive. They did have Saracens operate there for some years however.

No, the MOD liked to get rid of kit fairly quickly. Being impoverished they liked to get a quick return. Which explains why there are so many extant Chieftains, they dumped dozens on the market, and not all went to the smelters. Most farmers in the SW seem to have held onto one for home defence (I exaggerate, but perhaps not so much). If you talk to other posters they will tell you, were are quickly disposing of our MPV's from Afghanistan, despite having cost and arm and a leg, and not getting anything like the return in disposing of them. Which shows you how hard up the MOD is for hard cash.

Yeah thats sounds right, they converted some of the Chieftains in War stocks to AVRE sometime in the early 80's. As far as the former, the 408 is probaby gun tanks and the 426 are probably including Driver Training Tanks. I would guess the same is true of the 752, in that many of the early Chieftains were Mk1's which were kept for driver training. Not sure it was as high as 98 vehicles though, Id have to check on that.

We kept ferret until the 1990's, you can see photographs of them on deployment in Operation Granby. The Fox were utilized by TA Yeomanry Regiments, which held onto them till 1994 when the Tories made their first epic moves to screw up the British Army with 'Options for Change', when they got rid of them all. Henceforth the TA and the army, lacking enough recce vehicles, sometimes had to do recce in landrovers, which of course worked so brilliantly in Iraq.  The Defence secretary who did that still comes up on CNN as an 'expert' from time to time. Im not sure why, the daft bugger tried to load a mortar backwards when on demonstration on Salisbury Plain. I would have let the bugger get on with it personally.

No, I dont know why they would have that many Saladin, unless they were retaining them to provide spare parts for any remaining Saracens. It seems excessive, unless they were planning on flogging them abroad, ive got no explanation for it.

 

If you look at the CFE figures you will see they include gate guardians, which amusingly make it look like Daimler Dingo's are still on the books.....

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have done a bit of checking - I really need to get my data in order - Saladins were indefinably over for Operation Motorman. Also there was a Resident Squadron and Regiment of the RAC that spend their time on the border - these were mixed Ferret Saladin and Saracen

 

https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/the-rac-resident-armoured-car-regiment-at-omagh.182428/

https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/omagh-and-the-rac-resident-regiment.171679/

 

THE 'TROUBLES' | Ireland history, Irish history, Northern ireland troubles

 

CVRT would have been an issue - anything with tracks being evil

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Mea Cupea. Well thank you for kicking over a very interesting anthill, I never knew that.

I know Ferrets were sent there (they were known locally as 'Daleks' apparently) but never Saladins. You will note  that its got its done traversed over the rear deck, to look less threatening. They did the same thing with the Centurion AVRE's they sent to demolish the road connections with Eire', they stuck a tarp over the top to make the vehicle look less threatening. Although, its a tank, so go figure. :D

Yeah, generally they avoided sending tanks to Northern Ireland. About the only one im aware of was a Chieftain, and that was used statically in a local Cavalry Regiment Barracks to prepare them for service in West Germany (Queens Royal Irish Hussars I suppose). Nice Regiment, the commander was a bit of a slaphead so his Chieftain was called 'Kojak'.

 

 

Edited by Stuart Galbraith
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I thought the Centurions only did OP Motorman. How did they get them to the border.

 

I like the Dalek name   Was a fan of the Doctor.

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Ref Saladin in NI, the RAC resident regiment in Omagh was indeed equipped Saladin for many years and I believe was also equipped with CVR(W) Fox in the years before it was replaced by an Inf Bn in 1982. When I was based in Lisanelly Barracks in Omagh in the late '90s the gate guardian was a Saladin.

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Fox would be useful ..god view over embankments. But then also maybe a better target. Would not be keen patrolling on the border

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4 hours ago, WRW said:

I thought the Centurions only did OP Motorman. How did they get them to the border.

 

I like the Dalek name   Was a fan of the Doctor.

It was for motorman. Perhaps im misremembering it, perhaps they were using them to demolish barricades.

 

The year before Fox was withdrawn, we saw some of them driving around our village on exercise. First time we ever saw them. Figured the Hussars were having one last jolly before they took their toys away. It was a stupid loss, but such was the nature of cost cutting in those days. i dont think the Army ever has really recovered from 'options for change'.

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On 9/12/2020 at 2:14 AM, WRW said:

What would happen reservist RAC people as against TA ?

I forgot the years off the top of my head but when you signed on in the 80's it was for an "X" number of years "with the colours" and an "X" years with a Reserve liability. from what I researched those out within around 3 years would probably be used to back-fill units, then depending on apptitude and age the others would be eithe used in the ITO (Individual Training Organization) or used to form Home Defense Reserve Coys to guard POW camps & Key Points.

Would there be any AFV in deep maintenance?

Probably, especially Chieftain as it was well known it had a crap engine. Depending though on the warning times, the REME would have been working overtime to get everything out, I even read there was a contingency to replace EVERY Chieftain with a MTU Diesel, one Chieftain actually was fitted with one along with a Renk auto gear box making it the most powerful and fastest Chieftain in existence (thank you Rob Griffin for the info). Apparently the powerpack is still classed as a commercial secret !

Any Centurions and Saladins ?

I found a document on the internet once (and stupidly didn't save it) that stated the UK listed around 570 Cents for the CFE agreement. Now I dont know what Mks they were or if they included RE & RA vehicles. I sent FOI requests to Bovington & MOD to no avail. However one response that I received for a former employee years ago was that the 570 sounded about right but had no idea personally where they used to store them nevermind any other information.

As for the Saladins/Saracens I was just about to make a FOI regarding both, numbers and disposals in the '80's.

 

 

Quote

Darth I will answer your post next, but the short of it is that in the short term there would be NO new RAC Regts, everything would be geared to keeping what the RAC had on TTW (Transition To War) up to strength.........however by the late '80's the MOD was planning for a longer war with stops and starts. This is why the ITO (the Individual Training Organization) was going to be kept in service to train replacements and build up the Army (previously it was intended to be paused and all personnel used for Active Service)

 

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1 hour ago, WRW said:

getting a Centurion to the border and back would have been an interesting exercise.

They brought several AVRE 165 (165mm demo gun) Cents over from Germany for Motorman on either Fearless or Intrepid (forgot which but IIRC some of the RE Cent crew painted the ships badge on them) and brought them ashore using landing craft.

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22 hours ago, WRW said:

The Military Balance 1992 gives a figure of 187,000 Regular Reserves and 72,000 TA.

It also quotes 426 (408)Challenger, 850 Chieftan (752), 38 Centurion I have no idea of what the bracketed numbers are.

1000 ferrets, 350 Fox and 13 Saladin - in IISS 1982 there were 243 Saladin

https://www.orbat85.nl/documents/BAOR-July-1989.pdf

See Appendix B pages 113-115.....numbers are all from Official sources.

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1 hour ago, LouieD said:

They brought several AVRE 165 (165mm demo gun) Cents over from Germany for Motorman on either Fearless or Intrepid (forgot which but IIRC some of the RE Cent crew painted the ships badge on them) and brought them ashore using landing craft.

I would think they went from Docks to Bogside on own tracks - getting around the back roads of Fermanagh would be interesting.

Mind you a AVRE 165 turning up in Forkhill would have stirred things up a bit.

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1 hour ago, LouieD said:

Okay, once more thanks a lotr for answer!

So, there could be:

1) 3-sqn regt for 19th Inf Bde - 1 left for 1st Inf

2) 2 sqns from Bovington to 1st Inf so the UKMF/1st Inf would also have 3-sqn regt

3) 2 sqns left in Bovington - could be filled with 1 sqn from HCMR to have another 3-sqn regt for "143rd Inf Bde"

this leaves 1 sqn of the HCMR to be either CVR(T) or Chieftain sqn to support 56th "Guards" bde in London.

IMVHO 143rd bde could either join UKMF in Jutland or replace 33rd Armor bde in BAOR that was to support the Belgians.

And 56th Gds Bde could have some 3 x regts on FV432 with another 1-2 truck mounted, with 1 sqn of Fox, 1 sqn of Chieftains and 1 x 105mm Light Gun battery.

 

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