Ancient Bear Defence

[Colin]

Ancient bear defence

 

Pick a period to fight predators

 

 

Ok this thread was inspired by our handgun thread and by a posting in another forum by a guy who wants to use a Japanese Katanna sword for bear defence.

 

What period or type soldier would you prefer to be in a one on one with a predator either a lion/cougar/black bear/Grizzly

 

You can be any type of soldier except for one armed with a firearm.

 

I think for a black bear or cougar, a Roman legionaries outfit with short sword and full shield seems like a good idea, for the rest I am not sure.

 

Note for Mr Picky= a Cougar for the purposes of this thread is the four legged animal found in N. America, not what you woke up with last Saturday morning after a night at the bar!

[Lentzner]

Shortsword is a bad idea IMHO. The last thing you want to do is get into a wrestling match with the bear. Better to get a reach advantage and use your agility to keep the distance. If the bear manages to knock you down and get on top, armor isn't going to help much - just delaying the inevitable.

 

I think a halberd or bill would make short work of even a large bear. An open helmet and a mail hauberk would be good enough protection against claw swipes without weighing one down too much. Plus an arming sword and a dagger in case things go pear shaped.

 

If the bear advances on all fours then spilt his skull with the axe blade. If he rears up then thrust to the upper body going for the lungs and heart - he won't be able to reach you. Keep circling so he can't line you up for a charge.

 

In closing, men with tools are much more formidable.

 

Matt

[Redbeard]

I believe a heavy spear/lance was the preferred weapon in medieval hog and bear hunting, but I like the idea of a battleaxe.

 

Regards

 

Steffen Redbeard

[lastdingo]

a net

[UN-Interested Observer]

Hate to sound pessimistic, but I'm pessimistic. Seeing a history channel presentation on longswords, the Scotish variety was wielded by the host and used against a half of beef. I suppose the 12" penetration would be devastating to a man, but you would have to hit a man. To a bear it would not be devastating, you would only get one swing, and you would not have a stationary target. Sometimes it's easy to forget how tough muscle is, especially wild muscle. There are simply too many reasons why a normal person, even an above average person could not win a fight with a bear, even a small bear, with simple tools. For instance, a helmet may protect from scratches, but if a paw hits you a heavy helmet will help break your neck. Roman armor may allow for movement, but the weak link is the leather straps securing all the pieces - the armor would disintegrate in combat.

 

Traps and dogs can help a man beat a bear, though.

 

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/bearattack.html

[medicjim86]

I'll take a simple bow, a quiver of arrows and a large tree with plenty of dense branches please.

[Michael Eastes]

An English longbowman, with a short sword for backup. Engage the bear at extreme range, and if you cannot retreat and are not able to defeat the bear with all your arrows, fall on the short sword before the bear can get to you.

 

If the engagement is to be at close range, full plate armour and a halberd, mace, battle ax, and sword, and hope the bear is tired.

 

I wouldn't want to face a bear with anything less than a .44 Mag., and even then the last shot is saved for me. I took care of a guy attacked by a grizzly in Wyoming, and I don't want to try it myself, thanks.

[itsuneek]

does a ballista count as a firearm?

 

that should kill a bear, I reckon.

[FlyingCanOpener]

One (1) Mongol Horse with One (1) Mongol Archer's Compound Bow with a Quiver of arrows, since it has to be 1v1. If not, I would just take the Mongols' advance guard that assaulted Warsaw...

[Ivanhoe]

I believe a heavy spear/lance was the preferred weapon in medieval hog and bear hunting, but I like the idea of a battleaxe. 

 

I recall reading that European boarhunting lances usta have a steel crosspiece a few feet up from the point. Even after being skewered, the boars would continue to charge the hunter, further impaling themselves on the lance. The crosspiece stopped the boar from further enskewerization and kept the hunter from the tusks, though I guess the hunters were often dehorsed and knocked about pretty severely.

 

I don't think a human has the speed to survive CQB with a bear, armed only with edge weapons. Give me a spear. And a longbow. And a bloody fast horse. And a squire with a bad leg.

[DavT]

How about poison? Can we use poison? I'd imagine that coating an arrow head or blade edge with something nasty should help level the odds, even against a grizzly bear. It'll just crush you under its weight as it dies at the end of its charge, instead of mauling you to death...

[Gregory]

I seriously doubt a battleaxe would serve against a bear. You could deliver one blow, before he'll be all over you - and your chances of killing him with one blow are slim, unless you have strength of Hercules. Likewise, I'm guessing the buckles of the armor would tear and thus render it useless in any sort of prolonged comat. No - a long and tough spear it is. Stab him, then get the hell out of the way and let him bleed to death.

[Lentzner]

I'm not seeing how these bears are so super tough. Guys armed with stone age tools killed short faced bears which were far larger than any bears around today.

 

I have personally witnessed a large (550 lbs IIRC) blackie killed dead with two arrows. The second was actually just for insurance. The first arrow punctured both lungs. He climbed out of the tree he was in (going for someone's food) and died.

 

Some guy at Netsword went to the abbatoir and had at it with a sword vs. a cow carcass. He was able to sever limbs.

 

Supposedly a Dane axe could decapitate a warhorse in a single stroke.

 

Bears are just meat like you and I. Just more of it. Plus, I have heard their bodies are actually pretty soft.

 

Now tigers are another story. But you'd never see it coming.

 

Matt

[seahawk]

A medium spear.

 

The bear itself will drive it deeper into his body when advancing.

[swerve]

There's a skeleton of an aurochs, which I'd think was as tough as a bear, in the Natural History museum in Copenhagen which was hit by a thrown spear maybe 5000 years ago. It went through the muscle of the shoulder, straight through a shoulderblade, & the head nicked a rib on the other side of the ribcage. The aurochs managed to run a short distance, into a bog, before dying, so the hunters lost it & palaeontologists found it.

 

That spear cast would have killed any modern bear. It's assumed an atlatl/woomera was used, because noone can imagine anyone throwing a spear that hard unaided, & the angle was such that it couldn't have been thrust in. So, all you need is a straight stick with a bit of sharp flint stuck on the end, & a lump of wood with a socket for the straight stick to rest in.

[Victor]

A nice leg of honey roast ham on a long rope, hung from a tree, over a bear pit with punji stakes.

 

And several squires with bad legs.

[toysoldier]

what about a genoan arbalest, complet with broad sword and huge shield?

one shot in the belly or chest, then cover with shield and fend off with sword swings. the poor thing´s gonna bleed a lot.

 

other than that, any lance type thingy with a loooong iron, to get really deep into the bear.

has anybody here read the novel "The Crusaders", by polish writer Sienkewicz? there´s some bear hunting with spears.

Edited March 22, 2005 by toysoldier

[TSJ]

I'm not seeing how these bears are so super tough. Guys armed with stone age tools killed short faced bears which were far larger than any bears around today.

 

I have personally witnessed a large (550 lbs IIRC) blackie killed dead with two arrows. The second was actually just for insurance. The first arrow punctured both lungs. He climbed out of the tree he was in (going for someone's food) and died.

 

Some guy at Netsword went to the abbatoir and had at it with a sword vs. a cow carcass. He was able to sever limbs.

 

Supposedly a Dane axe could decapitate a warhorse in a single stroke.

 

Bears are just meat like you and I. Just more of it. Plus, I have heard their bodies are actually pretty soft.

 

Now tigers are another story. But you'd never see it coming.

 

Matt

156609[/snapback]

 

from what I have read grizzly bears are incredibly tough. One of the most awesome hunting videos I ever saw was when i was a kid. uh, this was more years back than I care to admit. The film showed Fred Bear hunting a grizzly along a river bank. Fred hid back in a little gulch waiting for the bear to come down the stream. Fred shot him with a plain old recurve bow and arrow. Maybe from 10 feet away. Right behind the shoulder into the heart/lung area. The griz acted like he was thunderstruck, started running and made it about 30 yards away before collapsing. It was one of the most awesome things I'd ever witness. Fred wore no gun and he was on the ground and not in a tree when he shot the grizzly with an arrow. Absolutely fearless! Fred had to be about 60 plus years old when this was filmed.

[Mk 1]

Fred shot him with a plain old recurve bow and arrow. Maybe from 10 feet away. ... The griz acted like he was thunderstruck, started running and made it about 30 yards away before collapsing. ... Fred wore no gun and he was on the ground and not in a tree when he shot the grizzly with an arrow. Absolutely fearless! Fred had to be about 60 plus years old when this was filmed.

 

Absolutely fearless? Absolutely nuts, in my book!

 

Note that with a near perfect shot with the bow, the bear managed to run 30 yards before collapsing. That probably required roughly the equivalent strength and stamina of the bear as running ten feet and turning Fred into chopped liver.

 

D@mned lucky that the bear acted "thunderstruck", instead of mearly "pissed off". I'm sure that Fred's long-practiced skill in concealment (both sight and scent), rather than his skill with the bow, is what actually saved his silly @ss.

 

Clearly a charter member of the More Guts than Brains Society.

 

-Mark 1

[UN-Interested Observer]

Absolutely fearless?  Absolutely nuts, in my book!

 

Clearly a charter member of the More Guts than Brains Society.   

 

-Mark 1

156822[/snapback]

 

Or a member of the "What the hell, I could die in my sleep tomorrow." club.

[Mk 1]

Or a member of the "What the hell, I could die in my sleep tomorrow." club.

 

Well, as the old saying goes...

 

I'd rather die peacefully in my sleep, like my dear departed uncle ...

... than screaming in abject terror, like his passengers.

 

-Mark 1

[Christian Lupine]

Reproduce at an alarming rate, industrialize, chop down all the forest that the bear could live in and then just sit back and watch all the bears die.

[Colin Williams]

I'd go for Greek fire myself. Kill and cook in one operation!

[DougRichards]

An open helmet and a mail hauberk would be good enough protection against claw swipes without weighing one down too much. Plus an arming sword and a dagger in case things go pear shaped.

 

If the bear advances on all fours then spilt his skull with the axe blade. If he rears up then thrust to the upper body going for the lungs and heart - he won't be able to reach you. Keep circling so he can't line you up for a charge.

 

In closing, men with tools are much more formidable.

 

Matt

156464[/snapback]

 

The only bears that I have seen are in a zoo, there was an outline outside the enclose of just how far a bear could reach up - it was about 15ft / 5 metres.

 

I think to reach an analogy to a man in a mail hauberk going against a bear, you would have to consider an NFL nose tackle with a large mace in each hand against a six year old child wearing mail. The mace may not be able to penetrate the mail too deeply, but it would break bones and tear muscle. A bears claws, when gripping mail, would be able to lift its human target off the ground and leave that human absolutley helpless, not to mention the physical capacity to rip off limbs and the head. mail would not stop that, plate may have some chance, but thye bear would still be able to rip pieces of plate away from each other.

 

I don't know if anyone has posted this link yet, but it is worthwhile checkingout:

 

http://www.improb.com/news/2001/nov/troy-bear2.html

 

Also remember what a 1300lb / 600kg bear would do if it just fell on you, or even just trod on you.

Edited March 24, 2005 by DougRichards

[scj1014]

I'm not seeing how these bears are so super tough. Guys armed with stone age tools killed short faced bears which were far larger than any bears around today.

 

I have personally witnessed a large (550 lbs IIRC) blackie killed dead with two arrows. The second was actually just for insurance. The first arrow punctured both lungs. He climbed out of the tree he was in (going for someone's food) and died.

 

Some guy at Netsword went to the abbatoir and had at it with a sword vs. a cow carcass. He was able to sever limbs.

 

Supposedly a Dane axe could decapitate a warhorse in a single stroke.

 

Bears are just meat like you and I. Just more of it. Plus, I have heard their bodies are actually pretty soft.

 

Now tigers are another story. But you'd never see it coming.

 

Matt

156609[/snapback]

 

Sir,

 

I have examined any number of very dead black bears. When touching them the fur and heavy fat make them feel relatively soft...the muscle is very heavy and hard.  They are enormously strong. I have watched black bears tip over rocks with one paw that I could not lift with two hands (I am 6'2" and weigh 250# and am very strong). I have seen them move logs with ease that I couldn't budge. I have also watched an angry black bear simply shred a six-eight foot spruce tree in about 30 seconds. Very strong animals. Grizzlies are even more powerful and much more aggressive.

 

                                                                        Sincerely,

                                                                                  Steven C. Johnson