Ss Celebrated In Latvia

[Jartsev]

To me, it is a somewhat similar situation with the Spanish Blue Division. They fought with distinction in Russia and I'm not aware of any atrocities towards Russian civilians committed by them. In fact they were reprimanded by the Germans because of their confraternization with the Russian populace, even with some marriages to Russian girls  .

  They certainly can't be put in the same group as the Latvian SS. However, they fought alongside one of the most monstrous regimes in history, although they were there to fight the Soviet Union, an equally evil regime.

  I would love to hear what Russian sources have to say about the Blue Division.

155747[/snapback]

 

 

1) There is a huge difference between your Blue Division and Waffen der SS... SS and related organizations were declared criminal in Nurnberg.

2) Diplomatic relations between Russia and Spain are normal now, unlike relations with baltic states(especially Latvia).

 

So there no comments about Blue Division other than neutral in russian sources.

For the sample:

http://rian.ru/society/20041116/734650.html (on russian, english version not available)

[Mikel2]

My point is that the Blue Division's history is one to be very proud of, except for the very minor detail that they were fighting alongside the nazis, which I find very hard to forget.

[Mikel2]

Thanks Gregory and Jartsev for the articles.

 

"Minister of Defense RF Ivanov thanks Spain for the return of cross from the main cupola of the cathedral of holy Sofia in great Novgorod"

 

Maybe the Russians can now return our gold reserves to us

[Old Tanker]

It easy to look at things from a 2005 perspective.

 

But to many people in that era it was better Dead than Red.

 

 

If you only have two choices Commie or NAZI , it's not surprising that many look at it not such much as to what system of politics was involved but did they prefrer living under a Russian Empire or a German Empire.

 

The Latvians felt more threatened by the Russians than they did the Germans.

[Gregory]

It easy to look at things from a 2005 perspective.

It's not just "easy", it's the only morally correct position. To do otherwise it to be willfully blind.

 

But to many people in that era it was better Dead than Red.

For all the complaints by Baltic nation, Russian occupaiton was by far more lenient. In 1940-1941, approximately 15,000 Latvians were deported to Russia. Of those, approximately 5000 died from all causes (about 300 were executed, the rest died in camps or prisons). In 1941 alone, 35000 Latvian Jews were executed by the Nazis. Another 10-15,000 Latvians of all nationalities who were accused of sympathies to the USSR were also elminiated. They were not given a choice, wether they wanted to be "red", "dead" or otherwise.

 

If you only have two choices Commie or NAZI  , it's not surprising  that many look at it not such much as to what system of politics was involved but did they prefrer living under  a Russian Empire or a German Empire.

 

The Latvians felt more threatened by the Russians than they did the Germans.

155776[/snapback]

I can understand that since the genocide did not fall upon the ethnic Latvians, they were comparatively untroubled by it. However, I find nothing worthy of celebration in that stance.

[Jartsev]

Actual numbers of arrests and deportations in Baltics, 1940-1941, on russian languge:

 

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Докладная записка НКГБ СССР №2288/М в ЦК ВКП(б), СНК СССР и НКВД СССР об итогах операции по изъятию антисоветского, уголовного и социально опасного элемента в Литве, Латвии и Эстонии

 

17 июня 1941 г.

 

Подведены окончательные итоги операции по аресту и выселению антисоветского, уголовного и социально опасного элемента из Литовской, Латвийской и Эстонской ССР.

 

По Литве: арестовано 5664 человека, выселено 10187 человек, всего репрессирован 15851 человек. /Lithuania- arrested-5664, deported 10187, total-15851/

 

По Латвии: арестовано 5625 человек, выселено 9546 человек, всего репрессирован 15171 человек. /Latvia -arrested 5625, deported 9546, total-15171/

 

По Эстонии: арестовано 3178 человек, выселено 5978 человек, всего репрессировано 9156 человек. /arrested -3178, deported -5978 , total -9156/

 

Всего по всем трем республикам: арестовано 14467 человек, выселено 25711 человек, всего репрессировано 40178 человек.

/Total- arrested-14467, deported 25711, total-40178/

 

В том числе по трем республикам:

/Including( 3 republics total)/

 

а) активных членов контрреволюционных националистических организаций арестовано - 5420 человек, выселено членов их семей - 11038 человек;

/active members of nationalistic organizations- arrested 5420, members of they families deported-11038/

 

б) бывших охранников, жандармов, полицейских, тюремщиков арестовано - 1603 человека, выселено членов их семей - 3240 человек;

/former security guards, police and prison personel- arrested 1603, members of they families deported -3240

 

в) бывших крупных помещиков, фабрикантов и чиновников бывшего госаппарата Литвы, Латвии и Эстонии арестовано - 3236 человек, выселено членов их семей - 7124 человека;

/significant landowners, manufacturer(manufacture owners), high ranking officials -arrested- 3236, members of they families-7124/

 

г) бывших офицеров польской, латвийской, литовской, эстонской и белой армий, не служивших в территориальных корпусах и на которых имелись компрометирующие материалы, арестовано - 643 человека, выселено членов их семей - 1649 человек;

/former officers of Polish, Latvian, Lithuanian, Estonian and "White" armies, not serving in territorial units of Red Army, and there are compromising materials on them- arrested 643, family members deported -1649/

 

д) членов семей участников контрреволюционных организаций, осужденных к ВМН, арестовано - 27 человек, выселено - 465 человек;

/members of families of counter-revolutional organizations activists(sentenced to death)- arrested- 27, deported- 465/

 

е) лиц, прибывших из Германии в порядке репатриации, а также немцев, записавшихся на репатриацию и по различным причинам не уехавших в Германию, в отношении которых имеется компрометирующий материал, арестовано - 56 человек, выселено - 105 человек;

/persons repatriated from Germany, ethnic germans registered to migrate to Germany and didnt leaved baltics by different reasons; there are compromising materials on them- arrested 27, deported-105/

 

ж) беженцев из бывшей Польши, отказавшихся принять советское гражданство, арестовано - 337 человек, выселено - 1330 человек:

/refugees from Poland, refused to take oviet citizenship- arrested 337, deported 1330/

 

з) уголовного элемента арестовано - 2162 человека;

/criminals- arrested 2162/

 

и) проституток, зарегистрированных в бывших полицейских органах Литвы, Латвии и Эстонии, ныне продолжающих заниматься проституцией, выселено - 760 человек;

/registered prostitutes- deported 760/

 

к) бывших офицеров литовской, латвийской и эстонской армий, служивших в территориальных корпусах Красной Армии, на которых имелся компрометирующий материал, арестовано - 933 человека, в том числе: по Литве - 285 человек, по Латвии - 424 человека, по Эстонии - 224 человека.<...>

/former officers of baltics armies on Red army service, there are compromising materials on them- arrested total 933/

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taken from: "Органы государственной безопасности СССР в Великой Отечественной войне". Т.1. Накануне. Книга 2. 1 января - 21 июня 1941 г. М., 1995. С.247-248

[LeoTanker]

@ Greg Deych: Good points. I agree with you 100%.

[swerve]

"More lenient" is most definitely a relative term, though. As a proportion of small populations those are still large numbers. 9000 Estonians arrested or deported is equivalent to over 2 million Americans, or >400000 British. 5000 Latvians dead from the 1940 population is proportionately about the same as total US deaths in WW2.

[Jartsev]

"More lenient" is most definitely a relative term, though. As a proportion of small populations those are still large numbers. 9000 Estonians arrested or deported is equivalent to over 2 million Americans, or >400000 British. 5000 Latvians dead from the 1940 population is proportionately about the same as total US deaths in WW2.

155948[/snapback]

 

On other bowl of weights we have ~61.000 civilians(most of them citizens of other european countries) and 64-65.000 soviet POWs DELIBERATELY exterminated in concentration camps located in Estonia. Those camps personell was mainly local. But killing has begun far before of creation of concentration camps- only during late summer- fall of 1941 estonian paramilitary organization "Omakaitse" killed about 12.000 of own co-citizens and soviet POWs in vicinity of Tartu. All jews of Estonia (2000 peoples, they not escaped to the east with retreating Red Army) were DELIBERATELY murdered during fall of 1941. Untill 1 november 1941 estonian police and paramilitary units conducted 5033 clean-up operations agains local civilian population, number of arrested persons reached 41135, 7357 of them were killed "for attemt of resistance"...

 

This is terrible truth that all in todays Baltics are tryng to forget...

Edited March 20, 2005 by Jartsev

[Guest DIU]

The Baltic countries are really specific in regard to the II WW. One half of their inhabitation fought in the Red Army and the second half for Hitler. One would think that they should keep balance or at least refrain from rummaging in these matters, but actually their state authorities and local mass media actively persecute the Red Army’s part as despised “occupants and their accomplices” and, on the other hand, exalt the local SS-men as “freedom fighters” and “avengers for violated independency”. In particular, the Estonian nationalists like to describe the joint operations of Estonian, German, Holland, Flemish, Norwegian SS detachments (it is interesting that they usually enumerate them like me here, with “Estonian” in the first place) near Narva in 1944 as a glorious demonstration of “Brotherhood in Arms”, the example of joint defense of United Europe against the eastern barbarians (absolutely in line with Dr. Hebbels) and the most heroic page in the Estonian history.

 

They think that they will increase their prestige and gain sympathies in the Western Europe in that way and, as a result, will be accepted as “100% Europeans” (i.e. bearing no relation to the Russian Empire of 1710-1918 and USSR of 1940-41 and 1944-91).

 

But the historic truth is somewhat different. They were not considered as “Aryans” in the III Reich (like Dutchmen or Norwegians) or allied states (like Finns or Hungarians). They were “untermenschen” peoples and their status was purely colonial. The Baltic countries together with Byelorussia were united into Reichskommissariat “Ostland” headed by the German officials, with the only state language (German), without the high education for native peoples (all local universities were closed), just like Reichskommissariat “Polen” (Poland).

 

The purpose of Hitler in the 2nd WW was “expansion of living space (Lebensraum) of the German nation” at the expense of “racially inferior” Eastern European peoples. Poland and Baltic territories were due to absorption by Germany, Byelorussia must have been “the frontier forest” separating Reich from the Eastern colonies. The after-war plans of Hitler and Himmler (the chief of SS) in respect of the nearest Eastern neighbours were as follows: 80-85% Poles, 85% Lithuanians, 50% Latvians, 40-50% Estonians were due to expulsion to the Western Siberia, the remainder “having an admixture of Aryan blood” (Latvians and Estonians were the movable property of German nobility during 600 or 700 years) was due to Germanization within 5 years in towns and 10 years in the country and exploitation by the German colonists.

 

And even formally the Baltic SS Divisions (just like the Ukrainian and other “Eastern” detachments) were not equal to the German ones, they were “der SS”, i.e. “attached to SS”.

 

In other words, the pretensions of these armed lackeys would be ridiculous if they would not be so disgusting. They were the worst kind of collaborators, just as their Russian/Ukranian/Byelorussian/Polish/Yugoslavian etc. colleagues

 

They like to allege that the Baltic Waffen SS bear no relation to extermination of civil people. What can be said on this subject? All SS-men had the same identification documents, without any special division for “concentration camp guards” and “front-line fighters”. The same men were transferred from the concentration camp guards to the fighting detachments (as punishment) and back (as reward). The Baltic SS Divisions actually had not enough time to participate in the “interior chastising operations” (they were established in the end of 1943 or 1944 and immediately used at the front).

 

But who were their staff? All native blood-stained butcher trash (i.e. checked personnel, from the nazi point of view). In 1941 Germans recruited about 85 Polizei battalions in the Baltic states (much more than 3 Divisions) and they were actively used for annihilation of Jews (in Lithuania 180.000 of 220.000 local Jews were killed by the end of 1941 and 30.000 later), “sympathizing with USSR” and the suspected partisan supporters in Russia, Byelorussia and Poland. What “vengeance on NKVD” could force them to drive Byelorussian peasants into churches and burn them alive? In 1941, 42 and even 43 they were sure of the inevitable victory of the III Reich, the Red Army seemed to be lost, and the front line was far to the East. Not “the revenge for 1940” was their driving force, but the pure servility before the new-old pitiless Masters, the wish of saving their skins and gaining at the expense of “losers”. These tens of thousands of thugs did not disappear in the mysterious way in 1944, they became the backbone of 15, 19, 20 “Divisions der SS”. Not “the fight for independency” and even not “the fight against communism” were the reasons for their “high fighting spirit”, but the animal fear of deserved punishment and the mutual denouncing. Of course, many usual people were mobilized as well, but the skeleton was quite worth gallows.

 

Well, this is not to say that the Soviet regime was ideal for the Baltic states. But their SS-men who openly demonstrate and advertise themselves are not “the snow-white champions of independency”, they should be attributed to another category. And their protectors as well.

[Rubberneck]

That's some interesting information DIU. I'm 75% Lithuanian (family emigrated to the US in the 1910's) and always thought the Baltic peoples were not Slavs, although it seems Hitler and his cronies thought otherwise.

[Sardaukar]

Well, Baltic SS units were not certainly white knights of freedom...nor even black knights of anything ...but reasons for Baltic enlistment to various Axis formations were many. Some of them certainly were Nazis, some of them were fighting against Soviets to regain independence of their country, some were just adventurers.

 

Many Soviets usually forget that they annexed Baltic states in 1940..and it was done under the threat of military occupation...and then by military occupation. Lot of Balts didn't feel too good about that, and when presented chance to fight against Soviet Union, they did so. As fighting for Nazi dictatorship versus fighting for Stalinist dictatorship, one has quite little to choose between, though... I have a feeling that lot more Balts did fight for Germany than for Soviet Union (not having the numbers in hand)..and fighting against SU did continue quite long after WW II, not only in Baltic but also in Ukraine and Poland. Thus, not all of that could be categorized as "pro-Nazi" or something similar.

 

Germans certainly didn't want to give Baltic states independence and neither did Soviet Union, even though for example Estonians did express hopes to gain that under auspices of Germany.

 

Interestingly, it seems that old anomosity between Baltic States and Russia/Soviet Union from 30's lives well in recent times..and it seems to be mutual.

 

Cheers,

 

M.S.

[hojutsuka]

That's some interesting information DIU.  I'm 75% Lithuanian (family emigrated to the US in the 1910's) and always thought the Baltic peoples were not Slavs, although it seems Hitler and his cronies thought otherwise.

156301[/snapback]

Well, Himmler seems to have been impressed by the Estonians, at least. He apparently said, "Racially, they could not be distinguished from Germans ... The Estonians really belong to the few races that can, after the segregation of only a few elements, be merged with us without harm to our people."*

 

* Himmler to SSHA and SSFHA, January 13, 1943, Geheim, Nuremburg Document NO-3301, USMT IV, Case 11, PDB 66-G, pp.146ff, quoted in "The Waffen-SS" by George H. Stein, Cornell University Press, 1966.

 

Hojutsuka