Ss Celebrated In Latvia

[MODERATOR]

Intersting discussion. Moved to GenMil as more appropriate.

[Sardaukar]

Well, yes, they did, and the Narva battle was touted by German propaganda as a triumph of the "European peoples," until they had to break contact and resume the retreat in face of the Rus 1944 summer offensive, ending up isolated in Courland in Sept. Many of the Western European SS vol. formations fought there too, as you know, under the III SS Pz Corps, as well as army formations south of Lk Peipus/Pskov. 20th SS Div held up against the first Rus assault at Narva in Feb44, but was quickly worn down into a battle group, as were the other divisions there, each in turn at the meatgrinder. Of the two Latvian SS Divs, one performed measurably better than the other, but I rarely remember which one.

 

Too bad this is in the FFZ, instead of GenMil!

155049[/snapback]

 

Seems that Moderator did read your post !!

 

Anyhow, it's bit ironic that most trustworthy units Third Reich had in 1945 were those of foreign volunteers. French did fight very well in fall of Berlin, for example. Many actually didn't want to join SS, but like French who were originally Wehrmacht unit, were transferred to Waffen SS. Sort of similar sentiments were among Estonians. On side note, Finns did also request first to be formed as Wehrmacht unit too, but had to be content with becoming part of 5th SS "Wiking" Division.

 

Cheers,

 

M.S.

[Gregory]

Germans considered the 20th Estonian SS division to be sub-par, and the 19th Latvian not too much better. The 15th Latvian was initially a fair division, since it was composed of volunteers to other SS and security units and had motivation if nothing else. After it's destruction and reconstitution, both it's and 19th reliability pretty much plummeted.

 

P.S In the past Latvian goverment figures appeared at functions honoring the memory of Latvians fighting in the ranks of Waffen SS. They haven't extended the same courtesy to Latvians who fought in the ranks of the Red Army (who were actually more numerous). I think it shows pretty well whose side they would be on.

[Guest Hans Engström]

It's always struck me as slightly funny (in a very macabre way), that Hitlers last defenders were mainly foreigners, French, Belgians, Swedes etc.

[Paul F Jungnitsch]

It's always struck me as slightly funny (in a very macabre way), that Hitlers last defenders were mainly foreigners, French, Belgians, Swedes etc.

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I wonder how much was a ) they had the worst options of anybody if the Germans lost, and b ) they were very hard core people in the first place to volunteer to fight for a foreign power like that.

[Arthur Hubers]

Estonia get some territories on the eastern coasts of Narva river and Peipsi Lake as  result of Tartu peace treaty. This was the price, paid by bolshevics for elimination of the threat of so-called North-Eastern Army(under command of gen. Judenich). Not too big price...

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At least in 1996, there was still an issue considering the Russo-Estonian border in this area. When trying to go planespotting at Gdov/Smuravyevo on the Russian side of the lake, we ended up wasting some seven hours in the Gdov militsia station for being in a "sensitive border region without proper documentation." It was very annoying as by the time we were released, another day without food had gone by and apart from a preserved MiG-21SMT and a MiG-17, we could forget about doing any planespotting anymore.

[Ken Estes]

Motivations to join West European SS units varied markedly, with few being ideological fanatics. I think a lot of the so-called 'fanatacism' was acquired in combat and in the Waffen-SS mythology. In the end, like the Germans, many voted with their feet. Most of the Charlemage Div not captured in Pommerania wanted no more of the fight, leaving Capt Henri Fenet and his large company [never a bn sized battle group as frequently reported] to go with BGen Dr. Kruckenberg to SS Nordland in Berlin. The Belgian and Flemish SS generally walked west at the end of April, as did most of the entire German Third Panzer Army of General Hasso von Manteuffel.

 

The collapse came quickly. Other than the flood of refugees, recruitment proved notably poor in 1944 and probably next to nil in 1945. Thus casualties incurred in the actions in the last months of the war could not be replaced, and after Stargard the volunteer units fell back precipitously before the Russian tide, sustained only by scratch replacements transferred from the German Navy, Luftwaffe, and a few men from the volunteer unit depots. After the Oder River line fell and the Red Army surrounded Berlin, there remained no hope. The volunteer units began to march toward the west and survival. Many volunteers voted not to continue fighting, and their officers obviously supported their desires by forming “labor” units and leading their troops away from the fighting.

 

The eastern W-SS units, of course had little of the same opportunity to fade away.

Edited March 18, 2005 by Ken Estes

[Simon Tan]

Brigade Dirlewanger...so awful that the Wehrmacht actually withdrew them from the suppression of the Warsaw rising because of their atrocities! They were caught and massacred to the man by the Soviets.

[Ken Estes]

Seems that Moderator did read your post !! 

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Yes, no doubt I have quite a following among them..... Ken

[JTGWalker]

A good friend of mine wife's is a Russian who was born and raised in Latvia. Great gal, sickeningly smart, good looking, etc..but she becomes really annoying when she starts talking about how bad Russians have it in Latvia since 1991.  Well, if you invade a country, try and eradicate the culture and language, and forcefully colonize the place with Russians, how do you expect they are going to feel?

154839[/snapback]

 

I have to chuckle at this thread, as I had a monstrous row yesterday with my wife (who is Russian) over exactly this topic.

 

She just got back from a few days in Estonia, where she was doing HIV/AIDS research, and had heard about "this awful Latvian holiday that celebrates the SS."

 

I made the mistake of trying to point out exactly what Rubberneck explains. I also explained that there was a difference between different parts of the huge SS organization, e.g., Waffen SS vs. Einsatzgruppen, and foolishly drew parallels between the SS and the NKVD / MVD, which ran the gulags.

 

I am reminded that I don't wear the pants ("ty ne khozain") in this family.

Edited March 18, 2005 by JTGWalker

[Gregory]

I'm sorry - I still find it difficult to find anything worth celebrating here. "So, you were fighting for the regime which deliberately murdered millions of people (including several hundred thousand of your countrymen) and which was planning to turn your country into a big colony for real Arians to populate. And your people would get to become second-class citizens, kept to oversee hordes of Slavic servants? Hey, you were a real patriot and a great human being, weren't you. Cheers!"

[swerve]

I have to chuckle at this thread, as I had a monstrous row yesterday with my wife (who is Russian) over exactly this topic.

 

She just got back from a few days in Estonia, where she was doing HIV/AIDS research, and had heard about "this awful Latvian holiday that celebrates the SS."

 

I made the mistake of trying to point out exactly what Rubberneck explains.  I also explained that there was a difference between different parts of the huge SS organization, e.g., Waffen SS vs. Einsatzgruppen, and foolishly drew parallels between the SS and the NKVD / MVD, which ran the gulags.

 

I am reminded that I don't wear the pants ("ty ne khozain") in this family.

 

I've had this sort of discussion with my partner over 20th century Japanese history (her grandfather, who is still alive & has let me handle the family swords - oldest 13th century - was in Singapore 1942-44; her fathers oldest brother was a kamikaze. They don't know what he achieved, but he didn't come back. His name's at Yasukuni, & I've been taken there at New Year). Sometimes, one has to shut up & accept a different world view.

[gnocci]

I'm sorry - I still find it difficult to find anything worth celebrating here.  "So, you were fighting for the regime which deliberately murdered millions of people (including several hundred thousand of your countrymen) and which was planning to turn your country into a big colony for real Arians to populate.  And your people would get to become second-class citizens, kept to oversee hordes of Slavic servants?  Hey, you were a real patriot and a great human being, weren't you.  Cheers!"

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Totally agree. I understand the "rebuilding your history" bit and all that, but to do that trough government officials celebrating the SS... That's beyond stupid.

[Ken Estes]

Totally agree. I understand the "rebuilding your history" bit and all that, but to do that trough government officials celebrating the SS... That's beyond stupid.

155557[/snapback]

 

From the original post: "The Latvian government is not taking part in any events to mark Legion Day, Prime Minister Aigars Kalvitis has said in a statement."

 

This at least infers that it is not a state holiday and may be just another veterans group or rightwing event?

 

In a few more years, there will be no more WWII vets, and these things will reside in the dustbin of history. At least they have not placed SS runes or swastikas on state or provincial flags to keep the old days alive....

[Jartsev]

From the original post: "The Latvian government is not taking part in any events to mark Legion Day, Prime Minister Aigars Kalvitis has said in a statement."

 

This at least infers that it is not a state holiday and may be just another veterans group or rightwing event?

 

In a few more years, there will be no more WWII vets, and these things will reside in the dustbin of history. At least they have not placed SS runes or swastikas on state or provincial flags to keep the old days alive....

155574[/snapback]

 

 

Ken, if government claiming that not supports, its not mean that it really dont support this. Did you heared about "Legioners Day"? This was official celebration day of SS in Latvia. It was canceled only under pressure of EU. So Latvian government WANT to support, but cant do it. They estonian neighbours at least imitating some struggle against "right political extremism"... But they too are saints...

 

P.S. Worst problem of baltic regimes, is that they are still thinking and making decisions in terms and rules of year 1935...

Edited March 19, 2005 by Jartsev

[Ken Estes]

Ken, if government claiming that not supports, its not mean that it really dont support this.   Did you heared about "Legioners Day"? This was official celebration day of SS in Latvia. It was canceled only under pressure of EU. So Latvian government WANT to support, but cant do it. They estonian neighbours at least imitating some struggle against "right political extremism"... But they too are saints... 

 

P.S. Worst problem of baltic regimes, is that they are still thinking and making decisions in terms  and rules of year 1935...

155584[/snapback]

Yes, Jartsev, but what made it 'official?' Did it actually appear in the govt bulletin, or was it voted in by the assembly? Details, please, if you have them! Ken

[Jartsev]

Yes, Jartsev, but what made it 'official?'  Did it actually appear in the govt bulletin, or was it voted in by the assembly? Details, please, if you have them!  Ken

155599[/snapback]

 

 

So-called "Day of Latvian Legion" was declared as official celebration day in 1999... Next year it was cancelled because of strong negative reaction of ministery of foreign affairs of Russian Federation, german ambassador in Latvia, german state chancellor Helmut Kohl and president of France Jacques Chirac...

 

but celebrations are continuing... they are usually translated by latvian state TV company in "live" mode. Members of government and parlamet are also usually detected taking part in this activities.

 

In Estonia former SS-troopers taked part in military parade in the ranks of modern estonian armed forces, conducted in Tallinn in case of Independence Day, untill 2003...

 

 

P.S. if someone dont believe this- its his right. I´m always responding for my words.

Edited March 19, 2005 by Jartsev

[BansheeOne]

Helmut Kohl was voted out in 1998. Did you mean ex-chancellor, or were you referring to current chancellor Schröder?

[Jartsev]

Helmut Kohl was voted out in 1998. Did you mean ex-chancellor, or were you referring to current chancellor Schröder?

155613[/snapback]

 

Thanks for correction- my mistake. Thats was Kohl... But in any case- "ex-" or not- very significant person in Europe

[Ken Estes]

So-called "Day of Latvian Legion" was declared as official celebration day in 1999... Next year it was cancelled because of strong negative reaction  of ministery of foreign affairs of Russian Federation, german ambassador in Latvia, german state  chancellor Helmut Kohl and president of France  Jacques Chirac...

 

but celebrations are continuing... they are usually translated by latvian state TV company in "live" mode. Members of government and parlamet are also usually detected taking part in this activities.

 

In Estonia former SS-troopers taked part in military parade in the ranks of modern  estonian armed forces, conducted in Tallinn in case of Independence Day, untill 2003...

P.S. if someone dont believe this- its his right. I´m always responding for my words.

155610[/snapback]

This is highly interesting, as you are pointing out the sole European government to make such an official recognition day, and now you point out their efforts to allow SS vets to participate in an armed forces parade. Please point us to the records, newspaper accounts, etc. Latvian language will not be a problem.

 

To say "Day of Latvian Legion was declared" is a little passive. Who declared it and when would be of interest. Cheers, Ken

[Ken Estes]

The gist of the below links seems to me that vets have applied for and received parade permits from municipalities, and government officials have and have not participated. The parliament tried to generalize Mar16 as a day for all soldiers resisting the Rus, but the ploy failed?

 

One wonders. It certainly has achieved a certain notoriety, but for some maybe it is shock at learning that W-SS vets receive pensions in some countries, as in Germany.

 

It has the look of ex-officio at this point. [Edit: maybe this one is better than the others, but it is still somewhat confusing (e.g. political but not govt support):

http://www.hagalil.com/archiv/99/03/latvia.htm ]

-----------------

http://www.ce-review.org/authorarchives/am...amber25old.html

[in 1999]

The lead-up to the 16 March parade is more difficult to contemplate. In an attempt to defuse some controversy, the government and Saeima (parliament) initiated several changes to existing rules. First of all, the government asked for officials and military leaders to stay away from the Latvian Legion parade, which has been accepted. The parliament proclaimed 16 March as a commemorations day for all Latvian soldiers from all sides.

 

However, the pre-emptive event did not serve its purpose. Counter-demonstrations requests came in from many groups. Jewish organisations denounced the event and called for its cancellation. Moscow stepped up its rhetoric against Latvia. In the end, even President Guntis Ulmanis stated that making 16 March a commemorations day for all Latvian soldiers was "wrong" and it may change next year. After meeting with groups from all persuasions, President Ulmanis (already in a lame-duck position as his term ends this summer and hence he is bound by term-limits) appeared to side with those calling for the event's cancellation.

 

 

http://www.fsumonitor.com/stories/031302Latvia.shtml

 

Baltic News Service

March 13, 2002

 

Riga, 13 March: Following suggestions made by the Latvian Security Police, the Riga City Council has cancelled its previously issued permission for two right-wing movements to hold a procession through the centre of the Latvian capital on 16 March in honor of the Latvian Nazi SS Waffen soldiers of World War II.

 

The processions on 16 March in memory of the soldiers serving in the Latvian Nazi legion have in previous years drawn much international attention.

 

The former Latvian Legionnaires, as the soldiers are known in Latvia, and the Latvian National Soldiers' Society, have already announced that they will be forfeiting the traditional march to the Freedom Monument on 16 March, so as to not threaten the Baltic state's bid for NATO membership.

 

Nevertheless, both Klubs 415 and Latvietis - small patriotic organizations mainly consisting of Latvian youths - are dead set on marching on 16 March, and were initially allowed to by the city council.

 

The Latvian Security Police believes that such a procession could cause negative public and even international resonance, harming Latvia's national interests. The police said that they already have their eye on these two organizations, as they suspect them of provocative actions.

 

The mayor of Riga, Gundars Bojars, also said he does not support the processions, although for the sake of order the municipality may be taking a slight legal risk for taking back permission previously issued.

 

Both right-wing organizations told BNS that they will not be marching the streets on 16 March, but will individually be placing flowers at the foot of the Freedom Monument in central Riga.

 

Both movements were initially allowed to hold the processions, on the condition that they themselves will be responsible for public order during their procession.

 

Meanwhile, the Victory movement, covering for the illegal extremist Russian National Bolsheviks, were forbidden to hold a procession on the same day under the slogan "Against the renewal of fascism."

 

The Latvian National Soldiers' Association, organizing the traditional procession on 16 March every year to commemorate Latvian soldiers that were forced to serve in the Nazi army in World War II, previously said there will not be any procession in Riga this year.

 

There is not going to be any procession this 16 March but the Latvian Legionnaires will keep up with other traditions, attending a commemorative service in the Doma church in Riga, laying flowers in the Fraternal Cemetery in the Latvian capital and also visiting a Legionnaire burial site in Lestene, in the county of Tukums, north-west from Riga.

 

The Latvian Legion was established in February 1943, but 16 March was picked as the commemoration date because on this date in 1944 the 15th and 19th divisions of the legion locked in heroic battle with the Soviet Army at the Velikaya river in Opochka region in Russia.

 

A total of 140,000 people were called up to form the Latvian Legion and about 50,000 of them died in the war or deportations following the restoration of Soviet rule in Latvia. In 1950 Washington published a declaration about Baltic SS legions having being special units to be distinguished from other German SS troops and not regarded as movements harmful to the United States government.

 

Until 1988 Latvia marked 16 March as the commemoration day for Latvian Legionnaires unofficially. In summer 1988, 16 March was made an official date for commemoration of Latvian soldiers but last year the Latvian parliament resolved to change the official commemoration date to 11 November or Lacplesis' Day, named after Latvian folk tale hero Lacplesis, who fought against foreign invaders.

 

http://www.humanrights.org.lv/html/monitor/28276.html

 

Liepaja City Council has authorised organisation of the procession on the Commemoration day for the Latvian Legion on 16 March despite warnings about possible violence during the event expressed by the representatives of left-wing political parties. Latvian National Democratic party and For Human Rights in the United Latvia in collaboration with the Russian Community of Liepaja and other organisations are planning to ask Liepaja City Council to recall the authorisation of the procession, otherwise they will organise protest actions on 16 March.

Edited March 19, 2005 by Ken Estes

[Jartsev]

This is highly interesting, as you are pointing out the sole European government to make such an official recognition day, and now you point out their efforts to allow SS vets to participate in an armed forces parade.  Please point us to the records, newspaper accounts, etc. Latvian language will not be a problem.

 

To say "Day of Latvian Legion was declared" is a little passive. Who declared it and when would be of interest.  Cheers,  Ken

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I´m living in Estonia and cant read or speak latvian language...

 

 

News highlights march ´99 -Batics Worldwide

 

This is press-release by ADL:

ADL protest march of waffen SS

 

Radio Free Europe: Estonian War Veterans Provoke Russian Reaction

Read...

 

Article about Latvia from New Statesman, placed on BRITISH HELSINKI HUMAN RIGHTS GROUP website:

Where de Sade and SS lives on

 

Guardian, 2 may 2002:

latvian ethnic policy

 

 

Here article about 16.03.2003 by news portal www.delfi.lv

latvian text

Russian text

Intersting, that some significant details are missing in latvian version(if yhey are true).

 

Report by RTR journalist Ekaterina Zotina:

Таллин приветствует СС If needed i can provide her phone number

 

I think,this is enought for understanding, that there are some problems in the Baltics... In russian language i found one very capacious word to describe this- "блядство".

 

 

P.S.

The decisions, issued by latvian president:

http://www.likumi.lv/doc.php?id=49093

http://www.likumi.lv/doc.php?id=2389

 

Re-burial of SS-Standartenführer Alfons Vilhelm Robert Rebane in Estonia:

screenshots from TV-report.

 

 

Participation of military, presented by servicemen of "Guard Battalion"/ "Vahepataljon" is evident.

 

Official list of units, taked part in military parade in Tallinn, 24.02.2000:

Read list, on estonian language SS and wermacht veterans are bashfully listed as "war veterans"...

Edited March 19, 2005 by Jartsev

[LeoTanker]

It's always struck me as slightly funny (in a very macabre way), that Hitlers last defenders were mainly foreigners, French, Belgians, Swedes etc.

155165[/snapback]

 

 

Not so odd, really. Thoose traitors just had to fight on to the bitter end since they knew what would happend to them if they got capptured by the russians, or if they would be sent home to their own countries.

 

To hell with the Baltic SS!

[Mikel2]

To me, it is a somewhat similar situation with the Spanish Blue Division. They fought with distinction in Russia and I'm not aware of any atrocities towards Russian civilians committed by them. In fact they were reprimanded by the Germans because of their confraternization with the Russian populace, even with some marriages to Russian girls .

They certainly can't be put in the same group as the Latvian SS. However, they fought alongside one of the most monstrous regimes in history, although they were there to fight the Soviet Union, an equally evil regime.

I would love to hear what Russian sources have to say about the Blue Division.

[Gregory]

To me, it is a somewhat similar situation with the Spanish Blue Division. They fought with distinction in Russia and I'm not aware of any atrocities towards Russian civilians committed by them. In fact they were reprimanded by the Germans because of their confraternization with the Russian populace, even with some marriages to Russian girls  .

  They certainly can't be put in the same group as the Latvian SS. However, they fought alongside one of the most monstrous regimes in history, although they were there to fight the Soviet Union, an equally evil regime.

  I would love to hear what Russian sources have to say about the Blue Division.

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Here is an excerpt from memoirs of a woman who lived under occupation, and encountered both Spaniards and Germans.

1. Germans are silent and quiet. Spaniards are loud and restless as young puppies. 2. Germans implicitly submit to any order. Spaniards always strive to not execute the order, whatever it was. Germans are forbidden to offend Spaniards, as visitors. So they are externally nice to them, though really they passionately hate. Spaniards beat up Germans every Saturday at night after they get drunk on weekly wine ration. Germans just defend themselves.

3. Germans are extremely economical with regimentals and products. Any crumb of products at them does not go to waste. Spaniards, having received absolutely new silk linen, take scissors and transform underpants into shorts. The rest they throw out to delight of my laundresses... Spaniards go for 35 kilometers from Pavlovsk for produce every week. And everybody knows, what they have received this week. If it is lemons the exhaust pipe at the lorry is stopped up by a lemon and lemons stick out on all possible and impossible places. If apples - the same occurs and to apples and all other...

4... Germans are brave so far as as it is ordered to them to by Fuhrer. Spaniards have no instinct of self-preservation. If they suffer losses of 50%, the other 50% advances with song. We observed it with our own eyes...

5. Germans despite the sentimentality are very rough with women. They like similarity of home life with the girlfriends, but in essence - egoists and boors. And in "campaign" they force girls to clean behind themselves lavatories and with pleasure and mockery make a mess of the whole thing. Germans can hit woman. Spaniards - passion and respect for the woman. They can kill their girlfriend very easily from jealousy, but never will strike.

 

Germans and Spaniards are united in one thing only - in violent hatred of each other.

 

She also mentions that Spaniards often gave presents to children.