Retirement Of Uss John F. Kennedy (cv-67)?

[X-Files]

Tangental:

 

Updated: 06:10 PM EST

Navy to Sink Retired Carrier USS America

By JOHN J. LUMPKIN, AP

 

WASHINGTON (March 3) - The Navy plans to send the retired carrier USS America to the bottom of the Atlantic in explosive tests this spring, an end that is difficult to swallow for some who served on board.

 

Next month, the USS America will become the largest warship ever sunk. The Navy will send the carrier to the bottom of the Atlantic by battering it with explosives in a series of tests designed to see how such a large ship would respond to damage.

 

 

The Navy says the effort, which will cost $22 million, will provide valuable data for the next generation of aircraft carriers, which are now in development. No warship this size or larger has ever been sunk, so there is a dearth of hard information on how well a supercarrier can survive battle damage, said Pat Dolan, a spokeswoman for Naval Sea Systems Command.

 

The Navy's plan raises mixed emotions in Ed Pelletier, who served on the America as a helicopter crewman when the ship cruised the Mediterranean shortly after its commissioning in 1965.

 

He said he was "unhappy that a ship with that name is going to meet that fate, but happy she'll be going down still serving the country." Pelletier, of Poughkeepsie, N.Y., is a trustee of an association of veterans who served on the America.

 

Issues surrounding a vessel bearing the name of its country are often more sensitive than for other ships. In 1939, Adolf Hitler, fearful of a loss of morale among his people should Germany's namesake ship be sunk, ordered the pocket battleship Deutschland renamed for a long-dead Prussian commander.

 

Since its decommissioning in 1996, the America has been moored with dozens of other inactive warships at a Navy yard in Philadelphia. The Navy's plan is to tow it to sea on April 11 - possibly stopping at Norfolk, Va. - before heading to the deep ocean, 300 miles off the Atlantic coast, for the tests, Dolan said.

 

There, in experiments that will last from four to six weeks, the Navy will batter the America with explosives, both underwater and above the surface, watching from afar and through monitoring devices placed on the vessel.

 

These explosions would presumably simulate attacks by torpedoes, cruise missiles and perhaps a small boat suicide attack like the one that damaged the destroyer USS Cole in Yemen in 2000.

 

At the end, explosive scuttling charges placed to flood the ship will be detonated, and the America will begin its descent to the sea floor, more than 6,000 feet below.

 

The Navy has already removed some materials from the ship that could cause environmental damage after it sinks, Dolan said.

 

Certain aspects of the tests are classified, and neither America's former crew nor the news media will be allowed to view them in person, Dolan said. The Navy does not want to give away too much information on how a carrier could be sunk, she said.

 

Why the America? No other retired supercarriers were available on the East Coast when the test was planned, Dolan said. The others - the Forrestal and the Saratoga - were designated as potential museums, she said.

 

In a letter to Pelletier's group, Adm. John Nathman, the Navy's second-in-command, called America's destruction "one vital and final contribution to our national defense."

 

"Ex-America's legacy will serve as a footprint in the design of future aircraft carriers," he wrote.

 

Although no larger warship has ever been sunk, bigger civilian vessels have gone down. The largest ship in the world, the supertanker Seawise Giant, was sunk by Iraqi warplanes in the Strait of Hormuz during the Iran-Iraq war in the 1980s. Fully loaded, it displaced more than half a million tons. It was later refloated and renamed.

 

The America, which is more than 1,000 feet long and displaces about 80,000 tons, exceeds the size of the Japanese World War II battleships Yamato and Musashi, and the carrier Shinano, which all displaced close to 70,000 tons. The Yamato and Musashi fell to American warplanes, the Shinano to a U.S. submarine.

 

The America was the third carrier of the non-nuclear Kitty Hawk class, and the first to be retired, a victim of post-Cold War budget cuts after 31 years at sea. It launched warplanes during the Vietnam War, the 1986 conflict with Libya, the first Gulf War, and over Bosnia-Herzegovina in the mid-1990s.

 

Pelletier and other veterans who served on the America said their farewells in a Feb. 25 ceremony at the ship in Philadelphia. Some artifacts have been removed for museums and veterans' groups; in addition, Pelletier's association will place a time capsule on board.

 

The Navy has several other carriers awaiting their fates. Environmental regulations make breaking warships up for scrap metal largely unprofitable, though some still are dismantled. The Oriskany, a smaller carrier that was commissioned in 1950, is scheduled to be sunk as an artificial reef off the coast of Pensacola, Fla., late this year.

 

 

03/03/05 17:05 EST

[Scott Cunningham]

How do you like that. Too expensive to cut up, so 70,000 tons of steel goes to the bottom of the ocean. Thanks Greenpeace.

 

Looks like the Oriskany is going down as well.

 

I think the America has a cheap, thin hull that didn't hold up in service (severe rust through issues). It was the first of its class pulled from service.

[Garth]

At least Oriskany is going to be sunk for use as an artificial reef/diver's mecca.

 

You're right about America's bad hull. It's the reason the Navy wouldn't even consider her for museum donation. Although if her hull is REALLY that bad I have to wonder whether these kinds of tests will really produce useful data. I would think it better to just haul her out into shallow water, scuttle her and let the diver's have her.

 

It's also a shame that the tests will be classified. I'd really like to see the footage ...

 

--Garth

 

How do you like that. Too expensive to cut up, so 70,000 tons of steel goes to the bottom of the ocean. Thanks Greenpeace.

 

Looks like the Oriskany is going down as well.

 

I think the America has a cheap, thin hull that didn't hold up in service (severe rust through issues). It was the first of its class pulled from service.

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[RETAC21]

How do you like that. Too expensive to cut up, so 70,000 tons of steel goes to the bottom of the ocean. Thanks Greenpeace.

 

Looks like the Oriskany is going down as well.

 

I think the America has a cheap, thin hull that didn't hold up in service (severe rust through issues). It was the first of its class pulled from service.

151182[/snapback]

 

 

Too bad, scrap metal is at an all time high at Chittagong.

[Ken Estes]

I saw Oriskany, I think, at Mare Island several years ago, partly disassembled by a civilian operation in the former navy yard. I guessed that they had run afoul of environmentalists at the time, just as with another hull [bainbridge or a CG? in Baltimore that the USN had to take back.

 

I am the oddball, again, here on America because I am thrilled to see the USN looking at damage control of this type of ship and I hope they can make some serious investigations. Think of the IJN tests on Tosa, similar USN and RN tests on incompleted or obsolete hulls after the Washington Conference. Sounds like fruit for a new thread, anyone have the info??

[Scott Cunningham]

Yep, these ships are far more useful sunk in tests than as a reef. Why not just blast them apart in shallow water and get both.

[Jeff]

I agree, this is an opportunity to actually test the ability of a ship of this size to withstand varying degrees of damage. Where's Billy Mitchell when you need him?

[Corinthian]

Is it just me or do some people find it a bit "disconcerting" seeing the USN sink a ship named "America"...

[RETAC21]

I saw Oriskany, I think, at Mare Island several years ago, partly disassembled by a civilian operation in the former navy yard. I guessed that they had run afoul of environmentalists at the time, just as with another hull [bainbridge or a CG? in Baltimore that the USN had to take back.

 

I am the oddball, again, here on America because I am thrilled to see the USN looking at damage control of this type of ship and I hope they can make some serious investigations. Think of the IJN tests on Tosa, similar USN and RN tests on incompleted or obsolete hulls after the Washington Conference. Sounds like fruit for a new thread, anyone have the info??

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You are not alone there. If I were the Navy I would have asked the Russians to loan a Backfire and 3 AS-4s and see what happens. Still, I don't see what's going to be learned by just blasting the hull away with C-4. Better to shoot some Harpoons and Mk-48s and see how many it can take.

[Garth]

Yep, these ships are far more useful sunk in tests than as a reef. Why not just blast them apart in shallow water and get both.

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This is pretty easy to answer ... how do you make sure that the divers going out to visit (and document, and take pictures of) a weapons-tested, sunken ex-America aren't agents of the PLA/PLAN?

 

--Garth

[Garth]

I agree, this is an opportunity to actually test the ability of a ship of this size to withstand varying degrees of damage. Where's Billy Mitchell when you need him?

151369[/snapback]

 

But again, if the ship really is as deteriorated as people say she is, with the hull having been constructed with sub-standard steel, of how much value are the tests really going to be?

 

--Garth

[Ox]

You could always sell it to the Chinese.

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Sell it to the UK, that way we might actually get a carrier. A bit old, foreign and clapped out, well name it HMS Duke of Edinburgh. Send it to foreign countries we want to insult.

[Ken Estes]

But again, if the ship really is as deteriorated as people say she is, with the hull having been constructed with sub-standard steel, of how much value are the tests really going to be? 

 

--Garth

151535[/snapback]

There must be engineering and metalurgical factors they can crank into the results to reflect that. There is a lot otherwise: effectiveness of compartmentalization, counterflooding, fire containment; how the shafts and props hold up when one of those 26 inch Rus wake following torps arrives, etc. Ken

[BP]

This is pretty easy to answer ... how do you make sure that the divers going out to visit (and document, and take pictures of) a weapons-tested, sunken ex-America aren't agents of the PLA/PLAN?

 

--Garth

151534[/snapback]

 

 

Fishing nets- hundreds and hundreds of snagged fishing nets. Then we can send the Hitlery Channel's "Undersea Detectives" to do an expose a few years down the road.

[Legion 46]

Tangental:

 

Updated: 06:10 PM EST

Navy to Sink Retired Carrier USS America

By JOHN J. LUMPKIN, AP

 

These explosions would presumably simulate attacks by torpedoes, cruise missiles and perhaps a small boat suicide attack like the one that damaged the destroyer USS Cole in Yemen in 2000.

 

At the end, explosive scuttling charges placed to flood the ship will be detonated, and the America will begin its descent to the sea floor, more than 6,000 feet below.

 

Why the America? No other retired supercarriers were available on the East Coast when the test was planned, Dolan said. The others - the Forrestal and the Saratoga - were designated as potential museums, she said.

 

03/03/05 17:05 EST

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I think it would be MORE than fitting if the Forrestal were used rather than the America

[TankB0y]

Yeah I think the America should have been chosen for the museum peice.

 

Its the asbestos, lead paint and other toxic chemicals used at that time that make breaking those older ships a pain. Dealing with those materals (or the regulations and contractors nessissary anyway) is stooopidly expensive.

 

If they cleared her of all fuel and munitions, ie: environmentally hazardous materials, how are they going to realistically simulate battle damage? Historically the biggest danger to a carrier is fire, not structural failure...

 

whatever

[Scott Cunningham]

Not much cause to turn the America into a museum. There are already a lot of carrier museums all over the states, and the ship is HUGE. Not many places to put it.

 

It didn't have a really distinguishedcombat record either. It participated in lots of events, but nothing of national importance.

[Ivanhoe]

Would be kind of interesting to measure the effect of modern mines. We could strip every inch of wire, air line, hydraulic line, and flight line, and it would still be of interest in getting empirical data on mine damage.

[Garth]

American was "off the donation table" from the moment she left the fleet ... the Navy just didn't consider her to be safe enough to donate.

 

Saratoga is going to Quonset Point RI, once they get set up for her. Forrestal has groups in Baltimore and Tampa FL fighting over her (although both are having issues generating the kind of upfront warchest that the Navy demands of donation recipients).

 

There are rumors out there that Newport News (in a joint venture between the city and the shipbuilder) wants, and is likely to get, Enterprise. Apparently cutting the reactors out of the hull is going to be a complete motherf*cker, and the Navy can't SinkEx her with them still inside.

 

There are also rumors about Boston wanting JFK. The beauty of a modern supercarrier is that there's enough space in the hangar deck, and on the flight deck that you really have what amounts to an instant mini waterfront convention center.

 

--Garth

 

Yeah I think the America should have been chosen for the museum peice.

[Scott Cunningham]

Ship museums are great if done right. The USS Alabama is a superb examle of this.

 

When they are not maintained (and they require an immense amount of work) they become a liability.

 

The USS Texas springs to mind here. I think it has been fixed up a bit, but at one point was a wreck. The USS New Jersey isn't in the greatest of shape when I saw it two years ago.

 

I think there are a few carriers out thee already. The Midway is in San Diego, the Intrepid in NYC, the Yorktown in S Carolina, I think the Lexinton is in Corpus Christi. With the Saratoga and JFK (and eventuall the Enterprise) going into museums, I'm not sure what the USS America will add to that.

 

I think the only ship that should have been made a museum recently was the USS CAbot, but it was chopped up.

[Jeff]

But again, if the ship really is as deteriorated as people say she is, with the hull having been constructed with sub-standard steel, of how much value are the tests really going to be? 

 

--Garth

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Ken answered it well, the hull plating thickness should be a relatively small factor in the test results, subdivision effectiveness would of greater value.

 

I'll add the Hornet in SF to Scott's list of museum carriers.

[Ken Estes]

When they are not maintained (and they require an immense amount of work) they become a liability.

 

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No kidding. And the number of carriers, several of them with nondescript records, has alarmed me....They take funds which could have supported several other acquisitions.

 

Scott I think that Texas is now in great shape, as I understand the engine room is restored, making it one of the few recips to see; would that USS Olympia was in Texus vice NJ!

 

I strongly echo your disappointment over the Cabot affair...one of the best CVL records in WWII. Ken

[Scott Cunningham]

No kidding. And the number of carriers, several of them with nondescript records, has alarmed me....They take funds which could have supported several other acquisitions. 

 

Scott I think that Texas is now in great shape, as I understand the engine room is restored, making it one of the few recips to see; would that USS Olympia was in Texus vice NJ!

 

I strongly echo your disappointment over the Cabot affair...one of the best CVL records in WWII.  Ken

151941[/snapback]

 

I was on it in 1986. The deck wood had been replaced with concrete. The ship was resting on the bottom silt, and had rusted through in several spots. The ngine room was open, and was fascinating. It had reciprocating engines, with huge pistons. Supposedly they did a big restoration, but I haven't been back. Its on the other side of Houston from my family so I never get down there.

 

I think it is the only dreadnought from WWI preserved. The German/Turk Goeben survived into the 70's, but was scrapped eventually.

 

The Olympia is in good shape, but it is a pretty small ship, about as big as a WWII destroyer (but a bit wider).

 

The Des Moines is still sitting in Philly. I wonder if it is considered for a museum. Not the greatest war record, but the best gun cruiser ever built. It is a pretty cool looking ship. SS United States is also in Philly, but I think it will eventually be scrapped. Fastest passenger ship ever. I think the engines are still classified.

[Ken Estes]

I think it is the only dreadnought from WWI preserved. The German/Turk Goeben survived into the 70's, but was scrapped eventually.

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Yep, my anger over the failure to save Yavuz [ex-Goeben] was only exceeded by the goofups over Enterprise (CV6] after she had been made a historic ship by executive order. The USN then insisted it needed her in the Reserve Fleet as a CVS, to make the 22 required in 1949, lost the protection, scrapped c1959. I thought Olympia had decrepit machinery when I saw her in mid90s. Cross all that with the scrapping of Oregon (BB3) in 1942 as part of the WWII scrap metal drive, the failure to lift a hand over Washington the only US BB to sink another BB.... I stop now. Things could be worse, I was excited to board the Rus Aurora at Leningrad 1990, but found her an empty shell.

[Garth]

I toured the Des Moines' sister ship Salem up at Quincy MA shortly after she'd arrived from the the mothball fleet at Philly. Exterior of the ship was in seriously bad shape. No substantial corrosion, but most of the paint on her hull was peeling/flaking off. According to one of the restoration volunteers, this had to do with an environmental group up in MA getting an injunction against them doing any hull work (wouldn't want pollutants to drop into the river and all that).

 

The interior was *pristine*. The dehumidifications seals had just been broken and inside she was just like she was when mothballed in the 1950s. The volunteer mentioned them having found perfectlyh mummified birds that had been caught inside during the process. Certainly shows just how effective the mothballing process is.

 

Finally the volunteer told me a neat story about how, when she first arrived up in Quincy, someone had gotten the idea in their head to put power to one of the old radar sets (I think he said it was a fire control set, but I think he really meant air search, since I recall reading that the FC sets were stripped out in the 80s to support the Iowa reactivations) just to see if the thing still worked. It took Logan Airport three hours to resume flight operations ...

 

--Garth

 

The Des Moines is still sitting in Philly. I wonder if it is considered for a museum. Not the greatest war record, but the best gun cruiser ever built. It is a pretty cool looking ship. SS United States is also in Philly, but I think it will eventually be scrapped. Fastest passenger ship ever. I think the engines are still classified.

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