Hearts Of Iron 2?

[richard g]

Anyone played this? Gets a big wrap here http://www.wargamer.com/reviews/heartsofiron2/

 

I have been playing Combat Mission Afrika Korps off and on but the micro management, intrusive TacAI, etc get annoying and spoils the experience after a while. So, how do grand strategy games in general play and, in particular, any opinions on Hearts 2?

[Reiver]

Have played the demo that Paradox provided: new combat system seemed better, air missions are partially improved, in that you can set missions for aircraft; but you don't seem to be able to target them as precisely. As it was a demo, I've no idea about how the new tech system works, or what the naval and production aspects are like.

 

Probably best to check out the Paradox fora for feedback on the game.

[Jim Martin]

I've been reading the HOI2 forums over at paradoxplaza.com, and the game sounds great--having much fewer of the initial teething problems common to so many of their past offerings. The tech tree has been greatly simplified, and they've introduced a research team/design bureau system, with different companies/groups having different skill set specialties (i.e. Winchester Repeating Arms is optimal for researching infantry weapons, Krupp is good for researching artillery, I saw Italo Balbo on the Italian research screen, being used to develop air doctrines). All in all it looks like a great game. One thing I'm picking up on is that it may have some balance issues (some are complaining it's too easy) but I suspect that's going to be fixed by both Paradox, and the modding community. I'll likely pick it up soon.

 

Unfortunately, there are 3 titles coming out, or already out, that I want to get: HOI2, KOTR II is coming out for the PC in early February, and Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth is set to come out soon, too. Given that I'm on a limited budget for gaming things, it's time for tough choices.

 

KOTR was a great game, but I haven't really revisited it since playing it for about a month when it first came out. HOI however, is a game that I have revisited over and over again. Lately been trying to survive as France in the Road to War scenario. France begins WAY behind in doctrines and equipment, but needs to produce units as well. Compounding that, the British computer player pretty much refuses to get its ground units involved in the defense of France, having only sent me a maximum of two divisions (Canadian and South African) as expeditionary forces. Gee, thanks guys.

[Guest Murph]

Is it better then the first one which sucked IMHO? Too slow, to much micro management, too many problems. I got it, and then tried to foist it off on several buddies, who sent it back to me just as fast as I could give it to them.

[Jim Martin]

Murph, I don't know how you'd like it. I'd strongly recommend that you hit the forums at paradoxplaza.com. Read the AAR's posted (which are liberally stocked with screenshots). I liked RTW and the first HOI (though I agree that Victoria was poorly implemented and nearly unplayable.)

 

Other changes include a huge number of brigade attachments for divisions, I mean MASSIVE numbers of new brigade types; the heaviest armored *division* you can build is medium tanks. Heavy and super-heavy are brigade attachments, which is more realistic--heavies were not used as equipment for entire divisions. Also, garrison divisions can be built. These can only be moved via strategic movement. Add MP brigades to a unit to increase its counter-partisan value--and yes, you have to deal with partisan activity in conquered provinces. Brigades are now produced *separately* from divisions, though to utilize them you must attach them to a division--I don't know if you can later reassign brigades, which would be quite helpful, and realistic IMHO. Also, your nation now has a Transport Convoy value, based on its industrial points and other factors (such as logistics technology, partisan activity in controlled provinces, etc.) Outstrip your transport convoy points, and your units will suffer for lack of supply.

 

It looks great to me, but then you hated HOI 1, and I keep coming back to it, as flawed a simulation as it admittedly is.

 

[edit] Also, airpower utilization has changed, I don't think I have a full grasp on how it has, but one important thing I saw was that you can tell a unit to continue its mission until it is reduced to X amount of strength. Very helpful, that. It would seem that you don't have to micromanage airpower so much.

 

Also, you don't have to remove units from play in order to upgrade them. Instead, "Upgrades" have their own IC slider, and you assign industrial points to upgrading your units while they are on the map. [/edit]

[richard g]

There is a demo for downloading, but no apparent instructions as to how to play it. Got me beat.

[Guest Murph]

Thanks Jim. I might give it a try, we will have to wait and see. My next software purchase is going to be Adobe Photoshop Elements 3.0.

[Jim Martin]

Stuart, I don't have it yet. All I report, is what I have learned from reading the forums at the Paradox site.

 

Is there any improvement upon ship transportation? One of my pet peeves in HOI1  was not being able to recall destroyers from Convoy escort in an emergency. The fact that you couldnt transport short range fighters from canada to the UK by freighter was also something I didnt like.(and before the patch, you couldnt even carry canadian army units on British freighters) Other than that the convoy system of supply seemed to accurately simulate problems the allies had with the U boat campaign, though the Germans never seemed to build enough boats.

 

Im curious, have you played it from the commonwealth side, how do they stack up to the orginal?

138881[/snapback]

[Daniel Papp]

I've got the game. After you got used to the game mechanics, you can beat the AI easily.

 

I am waiting for the mods to improve this issue, as I don't like playing the VH level.

The convoy escorts&transports are completely separated from normal DDs, you have to build them separately.

 

If you have a question, ask me, and I'll try to answer it

[Eric Johnson]

I have played their Victoria game and while I like it, it needs improving. Was thinking of try'n Hearts of Iron and some of the others.

 

If anyone play HOI has tips for the Victoria it would be welcomed.

 

One question about HOI2 does it allow you full control of technology adances as in the other games or is it random?

[Stefan Fredriksson]

It got a really good review in Swedish PC Gamer, and it looks interesting.

And above all - my PC can handle it.

 

Questions:

1. How long is usually mission, or campaign?

 

2. I take it, it is not turn-based. Can you play other human players? And if so, can that be done turn-based, or must both be online?

 

3. How steep is the learning curve.

 

I have *very* limited time to play nowadays, and must make the best of it.

[Stefan Fredriksson]

Stefan, if its anything like Victoria, expect to spend at least 6 hours a day on it

146894[/snapback]

 

Ouch! If I am lucky, my weekly supply of gaming-time will be 6 hours...

[Daniel Papp]

It got a really good review in Swedish PC Gamer, and it looks interesting.

And above all - my PC can handle it. 

 

Questions:

1. How long is usually mission, or campaign?

 

2. I take it, it is not turn-based. Can you play other human players? And if so, can that be done turn-based, or must both be online?

 

3. How steep is the learning curve.

 

I have *very* limited time to play nowadays, and must make the best of it. 

146652[/snapback]

 

1: Battlescenarios: few ours

1936 campaign, with anyone: loooong (1 week)

1944 campaign with Germany: well, good luck, you'll need it

If your time is limited, but want to do a whole campaign, you should go with the 1939 scenario, skipping the pre-war build-up. Even on highest speed it takes around 6 hours (depends on your computer, though).

 

2. full multiplayer support. As the game is RTS-like, not turn based (though can be stopped) . So you need at least 2 computers linked by internet or LAN.

 

3. If you played HoI, it not soo bad. If you haven't, then...Read intro in the manual, do the tutorials, read the remaining of the manual, and start with the Spanish Civil War Scenario. If you are new to the game, the AI is really challanging.

[Jim Martin]

I haven't had terribly much time to play, just played Germany from '36 to late '37 before having to hang it up a couple nights ago.

 

While it's nice, I do have a problem with what seems to be a tech research system which prevents countries from focussing in any one area. Here's what I mean: each technology has a "historical date" in which it actually came into use. If you attempt to research a tech too far before it actually came into being, you will get terribly little return for your research dollars--research goes nearly nowhere, the earlier you attempt to research techs. What this means, is that it is counterproductive for a nation to invest full-fledged into one or two techs to get *really stinkin' good* at them--example, as Germany in the old games, I threw a lot of research money at developing tanks, actually I'd throw money at getting Pzkpfw VI technology as early as possible, and then take a bit of a holiday from armor research (figuring that if I had Panthers in 1940, I was probably ahead of everyone else). You just can't do that now. This means you research *everything*. As Germany in December '37, I have researched Improved Destroyers and Early Aircraft Carriers, but only Pzkpfw II tanks. I'm now working on researching Infantry Division 1939, and pretty much all the early aircraft types have been developed by me.

 

While it is nice to have such well-rounded research completed, I always felt that in the old HOI I needed to focus on core competencies for the country I played--France focussed on land warfare doctrines and technologies, the UK focussed on naval and air doctrines/techs. That just doesn't work well in this game, which I feel may tend to give a "cookie-cutter" feel to the development of any nation you play.

[Sturmpanzer]

I haven't had terribly much time to play, just played Germany from '36 to late '37 before having to hang it up a couple nights ago.

  You just can't do that now.  This means you research *everything*. 

 

Well... Download the patch (1.1) and edit the misc.txt file. There you can modify the penalty from tech. Tho- after hating the whole historical tech. thingy for a few games, I've found it actually makes sense. The techs developed are intertwined with more mundane and more theoretical aspects of science not included in the game, also: This is supposed to be a grand strategic simulation of WWII, not a contrafactual "what-if-everything-turned-out-the-ideal-way"-sim. Tho it's entertaining to have absolute knowledge of how things will affect the war, it's not all that... challenging, really. Personally I've gone from 0 tech penalty, to 50% higher than Paradox has set. There are just too many facets to the items researched. They cannot be seen in independent of context. (But then again- I'm quite the eclectician when it comes to these things.)

 

But- anywho, as mentioned. Patch the game, and you'll find all those nasty little annoyances (like the 24 hour order-barrier after combat) exported to the misc.txt file in the "db" folder. There you can easily change things to your preference, as with the rest of the game, really. That's what I think is the real beauty of the game. One can in fact run the war within the boundaries one finds coherent to ones concept of the progress of the war.

 

And, yup- from my post you'll probably figure that I believe coherence is a sin .

[Daniel Papp]

The biggest problem in the game now, that, save naval bombers, air power is ineffective. You can win the game as Germay against the AI without building a single plane - perhaps one or two fighters, as your 8 bombers can do all your bombing needs.

 

no focus in tech research: if you are not playing the big three - GER, USA, UK - you must have focus in reseach, your teams are not so good that you can research everything in time, you must make decisions where to concentrate - infantry, armor, naval tech or doctrines.

[Jim Martin]

For all you Harry Turtledove fans out there:

 

While playing HOI 2, hit your F12 key to bring up the "Cheat" console. Type "alien invaders #"" where # is the province number in which you want the event to trigger. Space alien forces will land in said province, creating a new country which will begin conquest of the world. They have their own sprites and units, apparently (I just learned this by reading around the Paradox site).

 

Have fun!

 

[edit]NEWS FLASH! ALIEN INVADERS LANDING IN POLAND!

 

Screen shot here: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showth...ht=alien+attack

[/edit]

[Jim Martin]

Oh by the by, the aliens are Social Democrats.

[FlyingCanOpener]

I'm currently writing an AAR in their forums, it's Alternate History, and I'm not quite to the start of the game yet, but I'll be there soon enough. You can check it our here:

 

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=188388

 

Please ignore my poor German grammar, as I hope my old German teacher will do the same

[Jim Martin]

I've gotten to Nov. 1939, and managed to off Poland pretty nicely. I too, am allied with Spain, and I went with "Install Tizo" in the Czech crisis, so am now allied to the rump Slovak state as well. I've produced 2 Battlecruisers, 1 Bismark class BB with another on the ways, due Dec. 1939. Also, the Kriegsmarine numbers (drum roll, please!) 3 Improved CV's, with air wings of ME-109's, Stukas, and Fieseler torpedo planes. The CAGS are being produced, expected in Dec. 1939. Another 3 CV's expected in June, for a total of (drum roll) 6, count 'em 6 Improved CV's, to join my Kriegsmarine of 2 BBs, 2 BCs, 15 CA's, 20 CL's, and 20 DD's. (All classes of Improved type). Also, a fleet of 30 Type IX U-Boots is in production. My Type II and Type VII boats have been scrapped. 14 Transports have been added to the Baltische Flotilla, along with the Great War era ships already extant in that fleet, to form my transport fleet in anticipation of my invasion of the UK.

 

I've decided that, while many are criticizing air units for being underpowered, I am not going to "game" my way to victory. I'm trying to achieve a force mix that is rational, and in line with what I'd want in the event a patch comes out giving more power to air units--besides that, I've found that my tac bombers are fairly useful in the interdiction role, and I've researched aerial doctrines accordingly. I'm not building any new tac bombers at this time, but am building 6 Stuka squadrons, and 10 ME-109F fighter groups. I'm not terribly enthused about building escort fighters (ME-110s just don't do anything for me), but instead plan to achieve air superiority over enemy territory using the fighter groups, allowing my bombers access to the enemy air space. My already-existing ME-109E fighter interceptor sqns remain in Germany proper for home defense. Most of this stuff is being done in serial production (parralel production would INCREDIBLY overtax my production!), but I'll be glad to see the last carrier come off the ways, they were produced in 3 parralel runs of 2 carriers each. I've researched all industrial advances save for the assembly line techniques, and am progressing as fast as possible on researching those techs, Aircraft and Ship mass assembly being the first two to be researched.

 

Now to the unpleasantness: partisan activity in occupied Poland. I had to log off the game last night pretty much directly after conquering Poland, and I was already seeing some very nasty partisan levels in the occupied provinces, up to 23% in a couple. My Dad got the game before me, and expressed extreme frustration in the amount of manpower he was having to expend in building Garrison divisions. Just before saving last night, I did adjust my policy slider one notch closer to "Open Society", changing my occupied provinces unrest modifier to +40% from +50%, but I didn't get to see what effects that might have had. Meanwhile, in the spirit of the recent Iraq war, I have found myself somewhat "unprepared for success" in that I didn't have enough Garrison units with attached MP brigades available to occupy the provinces anyway--meaning my regular army units are trying to hold the land--a glance at their "Suppression" values shows that this is a really inefficient use of combat units, as a 1939 Infantry division has a Suppression value of 2, while a Garrison unit has a Suppression value of 8. Anyone have other hints for controlling Partisan activity, besides putting the entire population of Germany into Garrison/MP units?

[FlyingCanOpener]

Anyone have other hints for controlling Partisan activity, besides putting the entire population of Germany into Garrison/MP units?

154683[/snapback]

 

You need to up your consumer goods production and place garrison units in vital places with MP units attached to them.

 

Or...

 

You could be like me and give it all to Slovakia. You get a good slice of the resources/manpower and let them handle the partisans (they never revolted). I flooded Slovakia with technology, whilst at the same time building an Festung Ost behind the border. When the Soviets attacked in 1942, Slovakia held out for 4 months before finally falling. Perhaps that may work for you...

[Guest Murph]

Is this game any good? Or is it a rehash of the original?

[Jim Martin]

Murph, I'm liking it quite a bit. Definitely a different implementation.

[Jim Martin]

Playing Germany, it's mid-May, 1940. I'm loving my airborne divisions; have 3 built, 1 more on the way in another month. 4 transport squadrons to move them. Have used them twice already, to take Amsterdam during my assault on the Netherlands, and then in a coup de main against the fortifications of Metz, to allow my tanks to roll in from the Ardennes--I'd attacked the Low Countries first, allowed him to move a large number of forces north to face my infantry...I had not yet attacked Luxembourg, and aerial recon showed that he only had one Garrison unit in Metz. I rolled my panzer korps up to the Luxembourg border just prior to DOW on Luxembourg--he didn't know they were sitting in the rear, biding their time. DOW Luxembourg, panzers cut through Luxembourgese forces like butter; once tanks are in Luxembourg, airborne drops on Metz before he can reinforce the one garrison unit. Panzers and following infantry support the air assault. Garrison unit crumbles, infantry in Luxembourg supports defense while Panzers roll into Metz, and on into the unprotected French rear. Heh. While they are not yet capable of independent airborne assaults (both in Amsterdam and in Metz, I needed to have units nearby conduct "support attack" missions to assist them in taking their objectives) they can really speed up optempo, as once the opposing units are gone, the province is already occupied, allowing advancing units to conduct an admin march into the province--much faster than an advance into a hostile territory. Currently researching the 1940 airborne division, and with the 4th division I have on the way in the early summer, I'm hoping they'll be capable enough to spearhead my planned invasion of England.

 

Folks complain about air units being underpowered; the Paradox discussion forums have a good tutorial on effective use of airpower. You want 1:1 coverage of escorts to bombers, allowing bombers to stay longer over the target; you want to build up airfields close to the front, to allow maximum number of sorties, with minimum round trip delay, and you want to focus your doctrinal research--are you going to use airpower as a strategic asset, or a tactical asset? Decide which, and research in those areas only.

 

Murph, the new game gives much greater flexibility in use of forces; airforces have a wide array of missions to perform now: ground attack, interdiction, port strike, runway cratering, naval strike, naval interdiction, infrastructure attack...for the opening days of the France/Lowlands campaign, I focussed my tac bombers on runway cratering strikes...the French air force is now rarely seen, and my HE-111's are roaming over Alsace Lorraine and the Pas De Calais regions causing havoc with ground forces. Air forces are no longer specifically targetted at a single province (unless you're performing such activities as airborne assault), but instead you assign them regions or areas in which to operate. Pretty nifty. Same with naval forces. Instead of sending your subs to just sit around in a sea zone, they are given a patrol area, and they move around looking for targets.

[Jim Martin]

Has anyone gotten "expeditionary" (loaner) forces from allied countries yet? If so, how does reinforcement work? A big peeve of mine in HOI 1 was that when you reinforced loaned divisions, the manpower came out of YOUR manpower pool. So, when I played France (which has manpower issues anyway) and the Commonwealth finally sent me a passle of divisions to aid in my defense, I found that soon I was drained of manpower for my own divisions, having had to shore up the Commonwealth formations with French manpower! One hopes this has been changed...