Kasserine Pass

[Rick]

Are the specific models/ types of the German M III and M IV known for this battle?

[RichTO90]

7 hours ago, Rick said:

Are the specific models/ types of the German M III and M IV known for this battle?

No. The best that is known is:

As of 10 February, the Panzerarmee-Afrika (not including 10 Panzer-Division) had 129 German tanks operational.

As of 10 February, the 15. Panzer-Division had 1 Pz II, 2 Pz III(k), 15 Pz III (l), 11 Pz III (7.5), and 25 Pz IV (l), total 54 operational.

As of 12 February, 21 Panzer-Division had 6 Pz II, 64 Pz III of all types, and 21 Panzer IV, total 91 of all types operational.

As of 14 February, s.Panzer-Abteilung 501 had 18 Tiger I on hand but it is unknown how many were operational. They began with 25 Pz III (7.5) but I do not know how many they had left by February.

Strength of 10. Panzer-Division, s.Panzer-Abteilung 504, and Italian formaitions is unknown.

[Rick]

1 minute ago, RichTO90 said:

No. The best that is known is:

As of 10 February, the Panzerarmee-Afrika (not including 10 Panzer-Division) had 129 German tanks operational.

As of 10 February, the 15. Panzer-Division had 1 Pz II, 2 Pz III(k), 15 Pz III (l), 11 Pz III (7.5), and 25 Pz IV (l), total 54 operational.

As of 12 February, 21 Panzer-Division had 6 Pz II, 64 Pz III of all types, and 21 Panzer IV, total 91 of all types operational.

As of 14 February, s.Panzer-Abteilung 501 had 18 Tiger I on hand but it is unknown how many were operational. They began with 25 Pz III (7.5) but I do not know how many they had left by February.

Strength of 10. Panzer-Division, s.Panzer-Abteilung 504, and Italian formaitions is unknown.

For the ex-sailor, what do the letters in parenthesis mean in your 15. Panzer-Division after the tank type? 

[RichTO90]

42 minutes ago, Rick said:

For the ex-sailor, what do the letters in parenthesis mean in your 15. Panzer-Division after the tank type? 

(k) for kurz or short. The Panzer III 5cm L42 or the Panzer IV 7.5cm L24

(l) for lang or long. The Panzer III 5cm L60 or the Panzer IV 7.5cm L43 or 48

The Pz III (7.5) was the Panzer III Ausf N with the 7.5cm L24.

[Rick]

11 hours ago, RichTO90 said:

(k) for kurz or short. The Panzer III 5cm L42 or the Panzer IV 7.5cm L24

(l) for lang or long. The Panzer III 5cm L60 or the Panzer IV 7.5cm L43 or 48

The Pz III (7.5) was the Panzer III Ausf N with the 7.5cm L24.

Thank you.

[seahawk]

(k) should mean the short 75mm

[RichTO90]

5 hours ago, seahawk said:

(k) should mean the short 75mm

Yes, in the context of the Panzer IV. However, there were three types of Panzer III reported and in that context (k) indicated the "short" 5cm gun, not the 7.5cm KwK 37 L/24. In 1940/1941 the reporting was for the Panzer III (3.7) and Panzer III (5) but that changed sometime in 1942 when the 5cm KwK39 L60 became numerous. However, no Panzer III (3.7) were ever sent to Africa, which simplifies things a bit. Then in later 1943, reporting got complicated again, when the Flammpanzer III were issued in some numbers. The pro forma used started confusing people and you get what were obviously Flammpanzer reported as (k), what were probably (7.5) reported as (k) and other aberrations. So the pro form was changed again, becoming even more complicated and obviously confusing some people again. Anyway, the evolution of the Panzer-Lage from late 1942 was:

Pro forma as used by the Quartermaster Generals Office of the Army General Staff (Gen.Qu./Gruppe V (K)) and the Chief Panzer Officer in the Office of the Chief of the General Staff (Pz.Offz.b.Chef.Gen.Stbs.).

a = Pz-II

b = Pz-III kurz (5cm L42)

c = Flammpanzer-III

d = Pz-III 7.5cm

e = Pz-III lang (5cm L60)

f = Pz-38 (t)

g = Pz-IV kurz (7.5cm L/24)

h = Pz-IV lang (7.5cm L/43)

i = Pz-IV lang (7.5cm L/48)

k = Sturmpanzer-IV

l = Pz-V Panther

m = Pz-VI Tiger I

n = Pz.Bef.Wg.

o = Beob.Pz.

Problematically though, the Armeeoberkommando 10 used a slightly different pro forma...

A = Flammpanzer-III

B = Pz-III lang (5cm L/60)

C = Pz-III 7.5cm

D = Pz-IV kurz (7.5cm L/24)

E = Pz-IV lang (7.5cm L/43 and L/48)

F = Pz-V Panther

G = Pz-VI Tiger I

H = Pz.Bef.Wg.

I = Sturmhaubitze (StuH-III 10.5cm)

K = Sturmeschuetz

L = schweres Pak

There are some indications that other Armeeoberkommando also used a different system, but it was not until 5 August 1944 that a completely new and universal system was ordered by OKW/OKH.

CK = Pz-III 7.5cm and Pz-IV kurz (7.5cm L/24)

CL = Pz-IV lang  

D = Pz-V Panther

E = Pz-VI Tiger I

F = Pz.Befehls and Beobachtungswagen

G = Sturmgeschuetz, Sturmhaubitze and Sturmpanzer

H1 = schweres Pz.Jg. (Hornisse and Elefant)

H2 = StuG-IV n.A. (Pz.Jg.. 39) and le.StuG (Pz.Jg.-38 t)

H3 = schweres Pak (Sfl.)

H4 = schweres Pak (mot.Z.)

H5 = Artillerie (Sfl.)

H6 = s.I.G. (Sfl.)

O = Sturmgeschuetz and Befehlswagen (it.)

Apparently though, no one liked that so they changed it again on 25 September.

2 = Pz-III and Pz-IV, Pz.Bef.Wg. and Beob.Wg. were to be included parenthetically

3 = Panther and Panther.Bef.Wg.

4 = Tiger and Tiger Bef.Wg.

5 = StuG-III and StuG-IV, Jg.Pz.-IV (previously the StuG-IV n.A.) and Jg.Pz.-38 t (previously the le.StuG or Pz.Jg.-38 t)

6 = Sturmpanzer

7 = Jagdpanther

8 = Jagdtiger

9 = Nashorn (Hornisse)

10 = s.Pak 7.5cm (Sfl.) and (mot.Z.)

11 = s. Pak 8.8cm

12 = StuG (i), 7.5cm kurz

13 = StuG (i), 7.5cm lang  

14 = StuG (i), 10.5cm

15 = StuG Befehlswagen (i)

[Stuart Galbraith]

Some footage I don't remember seeing before.

https://x.com/hw97karbine/status/1911884368986906712?t=KgoQCirPufXU1NdcRVuq6Q&s=19

[TonyE]

On 4/13/2025 at 11:00 PM, RichTO90 said:

..... and Italian formaitions is unknown.

I have these numbers from several books:

On 1 January there were 64 M14/41s in Tunisia, 52 on 1 February and 28 on 20 March. As of early April there were 26 + 20 Semovente. There were also two squadrons of L6/40 lights in Tunisia in early 1943 and several battalions with L40 light SP-AT vehicles.

[RichTO90]

36 minutes ago, TonyE said:

I have these numbers from several books:

On 1 January there were 64 M14/41s in Tunisia, 52 on 1 February and 28 on 20 March. As of early April there were 26 + 20 Semovente. There were also two squadrons of L6/40 lights in Tunisia in early 1943 and several battalions with L40 light SP-AT vehicles.

Excellent, thank you. Are those from Ufficio Storico?

BTW, I meant to say, the title of the thread is confusing. The "Battle of Kasserine Pass" was actually two distinct battles fought from 18-22 February 1943 and was the end of the series of battles that began on 14-15 February 1943 at Sidi bou Zid, which was the first part of FRUEHLINGSWIND. It was followed by the Battle of Sbeitla 16-17 February, "First" Kasserine 18-20 February, the Battle of Sbiba 19-20 February, "Second" Kasserine (Djebel al Hamra) 21-22 February, and Thala 22 February.

[TonyE]

2 hours ago, RichTO90 said:

Excellent, thank you. Are those from Ufficio Storico?

BTW, I meant to say, the title of the thread is confusing. The "Battle of Kasserine Pass" was actually two distinct battles fought from 18-22 February 1943 and was the end of the series of battles that began on 14-15 February 1943 at Sidi bou Zid, which was the first part of FRUEHLINGSWIND. It was followed by the Battle of Sbeitla 16-17 February, "First" Kasserine 18-20 February, the Battle of Sbiba 19-20 February, "Second" Kasserine (Djebel al Hamra) 21-22 February, and Thala 22 February.

It is from the Osprey books on italian WW2 armour by Cappellano/Battistelli and from "Carro M" (vol.2) by Tallillo/Tallillo