US Army's new rifle: the XM7

[bfng3569]

missed the previous post!

Edited May 18, 2025 by bfng3569

[Ivanhoe]

On 5/15/2025 at 2:37 PM, Olof Larsson said:

And someting like the .338 Norma replacing vehicle and tripod mounted 7,62x51 and some .50 BMG MG's, and possibly as standard issue for snipers.

I've been wondering about the .338 class of cartridges for punching through typical cover and light anti-materiel activities.

For leg infantry and spec-ops, .50BMG seems too much of a Good Thing, but if ground troops are going to be using 5.56 and 6.5CM or other medium, it sure would be nice to have that 3rd option.

Of course, the next Ukraine type conflict may feature heavy use of 40mm anti-drone grenades more than general-issue rifles and whatnot.

[rmgill]

On 5/13/2025 at 8:19 PM, Stargrunt6 said:

Does anyone remember the pc game TacOps? This USMC major wrote it as a training game for .mil in one of his faqs he pointed out that studies show the lower in a firefight is usually the side that ran out of ammo first.  

Great game. I need to figure out if I can get a computer to run it.

 

On 5/13/2025 at 8:19 PM, Stargrunt6 said:

Did stuff like this happen in medieval times btw?  "The Crown has decided to forgo longswords and replace them with 10" daggers. You see, it's not important to break armor but to find gaps in it..." I'm sure some baron got strumpets and mead out of it.

The winner's probably took those daggers and had them re-forged into bodkin points for arrows and crossbows. 

[Markus Becker]

On 5/13/2025 at 11:18 PM, shep854 said:

A former enlisted infantryman weighs in:

 

Quote: It is the M14 all over again!

That's...take your pick. 

 

PS: Here's to someone making a BM 59. 

[shep854]

41 minutes ago, Markus Becker said:

Quote: It is the M14 all over again!

That's...take your pick. 

 

PS: Here's to someone making a BM 59. 

I think that was what just about everyone *who knows* first thought when the program was announced...I wonder when some bright spark will make a meme about the XM7 being half of an M14??

[EchoFiveMike]

It's the bullet that does the work.

6.8SPC was a good idea that has since been overcome by events, that being the introduction of good 5.56 ammunition.

The M16 family backed by an optimized M249 type belt fed machine gun like the Mk46 Mod-whatever is the least retarded way of doing things at present.  If you were going to deviate from this, going to the Browell's version AR 180 piston design seems the most utility for the $ spent.  The key is getting the equipment to the troops, all administrative and development costs are the problem.  America has an overwhelming parasite problem.  

6.8x51 is a good concept that has retarded implementation.  The 338 Norma/Lapua/whatever is the way to replace the 7.62 AND the 50caliber with a unified and absolutely omnipresent belt fed machine gun on every vehicle in the inventory.  Everything to include the fucking tricycles at MWR for children in base housing should have mountings for this machine gun as well as the 5.56 belt fed.      (cheap) Steel core AP is your base ammunition here.

The Mk 19 and M2 sized weapons should be replaced with 30x113 or similar medium velocity weapon using a modernized/rationalized HEDP type ammunition.  You have a far better chance hitting drones with 2000fps projectiles than with 600fps projectiles.  40mm grenades are for dropping HE behind cover, and 30mm might be better for that, it merits serious evaluation, by serious people, not by the MIC, whose actual purpose is extracting wealth from the taxpayer.

This is the same shit I've been saying for basically the last 20 yrs.  S/F.....Ken M

 

 

 

  

 

[Burncycle360]

In addition to 30x113 being a useful .50 / 40 combo replacement, for perspective an M789 HEDP 30x113 projectile with a 37mm case @ 12,500 psi would match the muzzle energy of a VOG-17 and achieve a velocity of 664 fps.

A 30x113 projectile with a 48mm case @ 27,000 psi would match the muzzle energy of a 25x59mm of the XM109/XM307 and achieve a velocity of around 1,120 FPS.

In all cases, penetration would exceed .50 BMG (approx 25.4mm RHA @ 50 degrees @ 500m, or ~45-50mm RHA @ 0 degrees) and have a lethal radius comparable though slightly less than 40x53 regardless of whether it comes from something like this




Or these







So even softskinned / lighter vehicles in which the 30x113 might be a little much WRT concussion and bulk could still benefit from the projectile and achieve similar effects on target using something comparable to the XM307, even if we disregarded airburst functionality and used it like a flat shooting automatic grenade launcher (OAL is longer than 25x59 so it wouldn't be a drop in replacement, but gives an idea of the potential)

Of course all of the relevant 30x113 projectile choices are also possible including airburst depending on how fancy one wants to get.  Would make for quite a compact RWS for UGV or counter-drone work as well.







 

 

Edited May 25, 2025 by Burncycle360

[Ivanhoe]

6 hours ago, EchoFiveMike said:

...  The 338 Norma/Lapua/whatever is the way to replace the 7.62 AND the 50caliber with a unified and absolutely omnipresent belt fed machine gun on every vehicle in the inventory.  Everything to include the fucking tricycles at MWR for children in base housing should have mountings for this machine gun as well as the 5.56 belt fed.      (cheap) Steel core AP is your base ammunition here.

 

I was wondering when the .338 Turbos would enter the chat. There's certainly no shortage of super-streamlined monolithics available in that bore size.

As for tricycles, please do not summon The Sparky (the guy who put the "die" in "diorama").

 

[Ivanhoe]

On 5/17/2025 at 3:11 PM, Markus Becker said:

PS: Here's to someone making a BM 59. 

Only if modeled by an Italian bella.

[Olof Larsson]

17 hours ago, Burncycle360 said:

In addition to 30x113 being a useful .50 / 40 combo replacement, for perspective an M789 HEDP 30x113 projectile with a 37mm case @ 12,500 psi would match the muzzle energy of a VOG-17 and achieve a velocity of 664 fps.

A 30x113 projectile with a 48mm case @ 27,000 psi would match the muzzle energy of a 25x59mm of the XM109/XM307 and achieve a velocity of around 1,120 FPS.

In all cases, penetration would exceed .50 BMG (approx 25.4mm RHA @ 50 degrees @ 500m, or ~45-50mm RHA @ 0 degrees) and have a lethal radius comparable though slightly less than 40x53 regardless of whether it comes from something like this




Or these





So even softskinned / lighter vehicles in which the 30x113 might be a little much WRT concussion and bulk could still benefit from the projectile and achieve similar effects on target using something comparable to the XM307, even if we disregarded airburst functionality and used it like a flat shooting automatic grenade launcher (OAL is longer than 25x59 so it wouldn't be a drop in replacement, but gives an idea of the potential)

Of course all of the relevant 30x113 projectile choices are also possible including airburst depending on how fancy one wants to get.  Would make for quite a compact RWS for UGV or counter-drone work as well.








 

 

Yes, I think that the 30x113 with air bursting munition, would be very useful for anti-drone use. Possibly mounted as standard on some vehicle types (say all tanks), in other cases, mounted on a sufficent large percentage of the vehicles in a unit to provide drone defence, and/or mounted on dedicated manned and/or unmanned ADA-vehicles.

[Markus Becker]

21 hours ago, Ivanhoe said:

Only if modeled by an Italian bella.

Classic: Gina Lollobrigida / Sophia Loren

Neo Naughty: Sabrina Salerno / Illona Staller 

 

[shep854]

3 hours ago, Markus Becker said:

Classic: Gina Lollobrigida / Sophia Loren

Neo Naughty: Sabrina Salerno / Illona Staller 

 

Any or (better yet) all!

[Ivanhoe]

I actually kinda know who Sabrina Salerno is, her looks are holding up very well in middle age.

[shep854]

It's now official; the M7 and M250

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/us-army-announces-type-classification-of-next-generation-squad-weapons-44821000

[rmgill]

On 5/23/2025 at 9:25 AM, EchoFiveMike said:

[snip]
If you were going to deviate from this, going to the Browell's version AR 180 piston design seems the most utility for the $ spent. 

 

I have TWO of these. I have not stress tested them but I do like them and they're damn simple. 

[shep854]

It's been two months, time to stir the pot a bit...

A(nother) sillyvlian's take on the M7, with a real-deal warfighter (Chuck Pressburg) giving his thoughts at the end.

NOTE: Seeing how bright the can got when hot, I have to wonder if they are really an asset in combat.

 

[rmgill]

Think of it as a stealth component for Infantry. 

Cans will glow if you shoot a lot. They'll emit near IR visible to passive NVG's after a bit and very quickly visible to thermal.  Early on, you're going to not be making as much muzzle flash, assuming it's long enough to contain flash (bets are off if it's a 10" barrel and a shorter can). 

But, the blast indoors OR even out of doors will be less and your firing signature will be smaller, audible and visual. Hop and Brassfacts have shown this I think in some of their NVG videos. You can also see in the Moons Out Goons out shoots.  

If two units of roughly equal infantry are in an engagement and group A has cans and NVGs they're going to have an advantage over group B who doesn't have Cans with or without NVGs. In daylight it'll mean that your gun fire will be less. Daytime shooting it's like a muzzle brake that churns up a bunch of dust which increases firing signature. Even in WWI that was something that folks took pains to minimize as it helped reduce effective return fire. 

Thermal NVGs will change the game, but are limited on the resolution and range. Careful concealment of firing positions and swapping or cooling barrels and cans will help. Expect to see thermal blankets used for camouflage prior to engagements against forces with Thermal NVG

Generally, cans make rifles more pleasant to shoot. If they're gassy like AR-15s you trade one unpleasant for another. On my tactical tuna it's not bad at all (there's a little bit of gas from under the toilet lid). On my BRN-180 it's not really an issue (piston gun). 

Edited September 1, 2025 by rmgill

[shep854]

Thanks, Ryan.  I have a buddy (with an SOT) who is a true suppressor enthusiast.  I've shot several of his suppressed guns with both super- and sub-sonic ammo, and while the difference is noticeable, I'm still ambivalent on cans, mainly due to the added bulk and length--especially on pistols.

[rmgill]

Like all things it's an engineering compromise. 

The addition of the can adds weight out to the front. But it makes the shooting, usually more pleasant. 

Imagine shooting a full power 5.56 rifle in doors without hearing protection. A Can is going to take the edge off that. 

For a 9mm carbine it's going to be 'mild'. 



 

[seahawk]

Or nearly inaudible outside the room with suitable ammo for the 9mm. 

[shep854]

Sig refining the M7, knocking around two pounds off and reducing the thermal signature of the suppressor, among other things:

 

[Ivanhoe]

It always seemed to me that rifle cans are a net benefit for the first mag, but after that not so much. 

 

[Mighty_Zuk]

5 hours ago, Ivanhoe said:

It always seemed to me that rifle cans are a net benefit for the first mag, but after that not so much. 

 

Long cool down time? 

How often do you fire more than a mag in a typical instance?

[bojan]

Look at the Germans in Afghanistan.

[Ivanhoe]

9 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

How often do you fire more than a mag in a typical instance?

I don't, but then I don't live in Houston, LA, Chicago, etc. 

I recall a saying from an RVN vet along the lines of semi-auto fire for offense, full auto for retreat.