the military ramifications of a war with Drug Cartels

[seahawk]

One of the mysteries in the mind of Americans. When it comes to drug the users are the victims and the government needs to do something about the demand and availability of drugs, because people are weak. 

Now use the same logic for guns...

 

[R011]

6 hours ago, ink said:

But then you bomb the competition. And the guys who come in to replace them too.

 

Just as they did to the Taliban.

[Tim the Tank Nut]

which would have worked (the Taliban) with the appropriate level of savagery.  It's very hard to do well in war with a soft heart.  Send 1000 heavy bombers each day and another 1000 each night and the enemy WILL get the message eventually.

Same, same for Drug Cartels.  Extermination level events changes the risk/benefit analysis for all the participants.

As far as Seahawk's ideas about the users being "victims" goes; consider this.  The current drug market is full of products that are synthetically made and much stronger than natural compounds.  It's made to be instantly addictive.  Lastly, the products are often laced with ingredients that are certain to be fatal so I think you can qualify the users as victims to some degree.

[ink]

10 minutes ago, R011 said:

Just as they did to the Taliban.

Well, the way I'm imagining, this would be done with the Mexicans on board. The Taliban could only exist in a power vacuum like Afghanistan. Mexico (whatever one may think of it) is a proper state.

[seahawk]

50 minutes ago, Tim the Tank Nut said:

which would have worked (the Taliban) with the appropriate level of savagery.  It's very hard to do well in war with a soft heart.  Send 1000 heavy bombers each day and another 1000 each night and the enemy WILL get the message eventually.

Same, same for Drug Cartels.  Extermination level events changes the risk/benefit analysis for all the participants.

As far as Seahawk's ideas about the users being "victims" goes; consider this.  The current drug market is full of products that are synthetically made and much stronger than natural compounds.  It's made to be instantly addictive.  Lastly, the products are often laced with ingredients that are certain to be fatal so I think you can qualify the users as victims to some degree.

Well, I can agree for things you smoke, or drugs that come in pill form, but I have very little sympathy for anybody sniffing a line or even injecting himself with drugs.

[Skywalkre]

13 hours ago, seahawk said:

The fist thing would be to make Mexico pay for the costs of drug trafficking. That mean tariffs on all products  and close the border for good. Shoot anybody trying to cross. They than have the choice to either clean up their country or end in poverty and a sea of drugs. Their choice.

A comically naive take.  Mexico is our largest trading partner.  You close the border and throw heavy tariffs on them til they 'fix' this and you're hitting Americans in their wallet after they sent a clear message this last election they're still hurting from COVID related inflation.

[Tim the Tank Nut]

I don't have much sympathy for users myself but I do know very well that good people can get sucked into it very easily.  A young lady has a few drinks at a party and loses some judgement.  Then she is offered the drug.  Because the person in question is already impaired they accept.  In many cases, instant addict, no turning back.

We have to be honest enough to admit that these chemicals are lab designed to be irresistible. 

[Sinistar]

41 minutes ago, seahawk said:

Well, I can agree for things you smoke, or drugs that come in pill form, but I have very little sympathy for anybody sniffing a line or even injecting himself with drugs.

 

if you look objectively at the drugs which are classified as legal or illegal it appears to come down to 

the industry which successfully lobbied for it

 

the legal psychoactive or designer personality altering chemicals have an industry name which is prescribed versus the street name which  is not

 

i.e., adderall is the prescription name version an amphetamine class substances- essentially speed - which was used either as a weight loss solution but more recently heavily prescribed to treat ADD or ADHD disorders- which those things themselves may be a symptom of being over - diagnosed

 

the substances given to control children's behaviors in schools, in particular boys tend to be heavily medicated because they tend to have more testosterone and energy is rather mind blowing if anyone were to objectively look at what that all looks like as it is literally a form of behavior and mind control

 

the irony is as society progresses and in theory as life should be getting easier, in some way or another  the more neurotic the species becomes or the more everyone is on some kind of script or in therapy 

[Roman Alymov]

7 hours ago, Tim the Tank Nut said:

Roman hit the nail with the idea of a harmless, free drug being a nightmare for humanity.  Sometimes will power isn't enough.

it was not me but Strugatsky brothers, Soviet sci-fi writers, back in 1965, 10 years before i was born

 

[Sinistar]

in terms of the health risks the legal drugs are not so different as a group from the illegal drugs - the health risks correlated to tobacco and nicotine products or alcohol are stated as public service warnings by the same government which approves them for sale albeit with some appearance of controls

 

whether synthetic or plant based the difference between legal or illegal is that they come from the same process but maybe the process is changed somewhat- morphine, which is necessary for legitimate pain treatment is sourced the same as heroin and act the same way as the same class of opiate albeit with controls - doctors and pharmacists could essentially be pushers and dealers if you changed the perspective around and it would not be a stretch if the differences in licensing and authority to prescribe and distribute them were not there

 

look at the strange scenario with over the counter flu and cough remedies containing alcohol or the precursor ingredients for methamphetamine which is why they tend to limit the amount of stock a customer can purchase in one visit who presents a valid ID or driver's license

 

this is where confusion of society's position on policy goals arises because it really it is all somewhat arbitrary but with the attempt at controls

 

it would be one thing if all known drugs or anything classified as a drug were prohibited (which even strict muslim societies avoid) which no one really would advocate under any realistic scenario- including approved drug scheduling for medical use were prohibited

 

but when you let one fly then you are beginning to let nearly anything out of the box and see what it does

Edited January 24 by Sinistar

[Roman Alymov]

2 hours ago, Tim the Tank Nut said:

We have to be honest enough to admit that these chemicals are lab designed to be irresistible. 

A lot of marketing things are designed to be irresistable  - for example McDonald's fried potato   And usually they are not exactly harmless.....

[Sinistar]

you may have read about or heard about the manufacturing of processed foods and researchers

basically figuring out that the effects of the ingredients work on the same reward pathways of the brain as

something like cocaine

hence the difficulty in stopping after eating only one piece of candy or only one potato chip

the dopamine hits and things like that is deliberate

there is nothing about that which is incidental 

 

the food and beverage manufacturers study and create these effects in the labs

 

 

 

 

[Roman Alymov]

10 minutes ago, Sinistar said:

you may have read about or heard about the manufacturing of processed foods and researchers

I know, i have spend (or wasted?) my best years doing research in advertising business for living....

[glenn239]

6 hours ago, ink said:

Well, the way I'm imagining, this would be done with the Mexicans on board. The Taliban could only exist in a power vacuum like Afghanistan. Mexico (whatever one may think of it) is a proper state.

The cartels have butchered hundreds of thousands of Mexican civilians.  I wonder if there are million of Mexicans that would jump at the chance to return the favor.

[Sinistar]

mexico is a state but it is time to revisit its status as an ally or something similar

 

it is clear that the internal policies of mexico has the view baked in that the united states is not a separate country but the means for mexico to either offboard its own population it cannot or will not take care of or caravans moving through mexico to reach the united states without mexico having to deal with it

 

they take it for granted and their poilcies are planned around that view while we operate a trade deficit in favor of mexico

as in- 'who are the americans to think it is their purview to close their borders now' 

 

in all fairness to mexico this entitled attitude is also the creation of the united states whether by federal and local government deliberately shaping policy that way or just the kind of messages coming out of the united states which was enabling that attitude for a long time

 

it is withdrawing entitlements after giving them out for so long and setting the expectation that they would always be there - naturally the beneficiary is going to feel short changed

 

 

[seahawk]

12 hours ago, Tim the Tank Nut said:

I don't have much sympathy for users myself but I do know very well that good people can get sucked into it very easily.  A young lady has a few drinks at a party and loses some judgement.  Then she is offered the drug.  Because the person in question is already impaired they accept.  In many cases, instant addict, no turning back.

We have to be honest enough to admit that these chemicals are lab designed to be irresistible. 

Sorry, but again. If you get sloshed and do a stupid thing, your fault.

[RETAC21]

16 hours ago, ink said:

Well, the way I'm imagining, this would be done with the Mexicans on board. The Taliban could only exist in a power vacuum like Afghanistan. Mexico (whatever one may think of it) is a proper state.

The Mexicans are on board, it's not like they are allowing the cartels to operate freely (which are less of a cartel than individual criminals over time) but they are trying to stop a flood of money coming over their borders to buy their way into getting stuff over the border.

Just this week: https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/world-news/mexican-navys-war-on-sinaloa-cartel-lab-destroyed-drug-boat-seized-in-dramatic-high-speed-chase/videoshow/117326314.cms?from=mdr

 

[glenn239]

4 hours ago, RETAC21 said:

The Mexicans are on board, it's not like they are allowing the cartels to operate freely

The assumption will be that the cartels have undue influence in the Mexican government, not withstanding the occasional high speed chase of one of dozens of cartel supply boats.

[RETAC21]

1 hour ago, glenn239 said:

The assumption will be that the cartels have undue influence in the Mexican government, not withstanding the occasional high speed chase of one of dozens of cartel supply boats.

Don't assume and check the real World, really easy to do.

[Sinistar]

9 hours ago, RETAC21 said:

The Mexicans are on board, it's not like they are allowing the cartels to operate freely (which are less of a cartel than individual criminals over time) but they are trying to stop a flood of money coming over their borders to buy their way into getting stuff over the border.

Just this week: https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/world-news/mexican-navys-war-on-sinaloa-cartel-lab-destroyed-drug-boat-seized-in-dramatic-high-speed-chase/videoshow/117326314.cms?from=mdr

 

 

there are operations but that is a drop in the bucket

mexico is corrupt- the local fedarales and local governments either are connected with the cartels, or they operate in some ways as if they were another gang or basically look the other way out of fear for their own lives

 

 

the capital mexico city is relatively clean - but once you get further away from there it gets more dicey

the united states has updated travel advisory warnings to its citizens and generally those are not receding- they are either holding steady at the status quo under the best cases or they are creeping towards a classification where the government advises not to travel to those locations

Edited January 25 by Sinistar

[Roman Alymov]

20 hours ago, glenn239 said:

The cartels have butchered hundreds of thousands of Mexican civilians.  I wonder if there are million of Mexicans that would jump at the chance to return the favor.

  I am not sure it is working this way. Are you sure it is not "Cartel X have murdered ny father and brothers, so i will join cartel Y, competitor to X, to avenge my family"?  I do not think Mexicans are concerned with cartels activity in general, end especially that they are going to participate in de-facto civil war to save gringo addicts far away across the border they are not welcomed to.

[Sinistar]

it is anything from gangs murdering locals as a show of who is boss and a warning to not cross anyone, civilians caught in the crossfire of their battles, or  because they are connected to organized crime even if incidentally - for example a relative of a cartel member kidnapped or murdered in to send rival cartels a message which in turn invites similar retaliation, or they are either forced to work for cartels or do so voluntarily but somehow run afoul of the cartel or they might be witnesses to cartel activity or know something about it and finally because the fedarales and local police themselves are often corrupt and either use terror as a form of compliance or to enrich themselves

 

as a tourist if you go to certain regions or cities and you are taking your chances - it is not a joke because they specifically target tourists

[glenn239]

23 hours ago, RETAC21 said:

Don't assume and check the real World, really easy to do.

The assumption remains as before, that the Mexican efforts against the cartels may be more for show than in earnest.  Anyone not with their heads shoved up their own asses understands this basic possibility on how criminal and civilian organizations often coexist.

Edited January 26 by glenn239

[RETAC21]

Just now, glenn239 said:

The assumption remains as before, that the Mexican efforts against the cartels may be more for show than in ernest.  Anyone with their heads not shoved up their own asses understands this basic possibility on how criminal and civilian organizations often coexist.

Then try to show your head out of you ass and check the number of soldier, policemen, politicians, lawyers, attorneys, etc. killed by the cartels in Mexico and then come back to "ass"ume that they are in sync.

[RETAC21]

19 hours ago, Roman Alymov said:

  I am not sure it is working this way. Are you sure it is not "Cartel X have murdered ny father and brothers, so i will join cartel Y, competitor to X, to avenge my family"?  I do not think Mexicans are concerned with cartels activity in general, end especially that they are going to participate in de-facto civil war to save gringo addicts far away across the border they are not welcomed to.

Indeed, they don't and the different cartels use Uncle Sam to dispose of their opponents if possible too.

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2024-07-25/u-s-officials-arrest-el-mayo-leader-of-the-sinaloa-cartel-in

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infighting_in_the_Sinaloa_Cartel