Greenland. China, Russia, USA, and Denmark

[rmgill]

38 minutes ago, RETAC21 said:

This isn't the case, the belt and road initiative has been a complete failure in leveraging Chinese influence.

They have spent by the trillion and in exchange they got nothing of value, main investment target (Pakistan) is a continuing economic mess. Sri Lanka? another mess. They got a pier in Djibouti to base a couple of frigates. Other initiatives have been incredibly unsuccessful in creating leverage (see Indonesia, which still buys its weapons elsewhere).

The inroads in central Asia were facilitated by Russia being busy in Ukraine, but this war cut the road initiative forever, so only the belt remains, and as the Houthis demonstrate, China is unable to keep it open.

If their belt is simply a length of rope and their road is full of Tofu Dregs Construction, that would fit. 

[rmgill]

3 hours ago, Stefan Kotsch said:

So we are throwing Ukraine under the bus and secure Greenland as a result. Something like this could it be?

Ending the war with some degree of stalemate is probably in the cards. Do you see Ukraine ejecting Russia short of several German, Polish, US, French and British Divisions going in? 

As to Greenland, Look at a globe, not a map (the poles are larger in a merkator projection map. Great Circle Route distances are FAR shorter over the poles or near the poles. 

Think about merchant shipping from Europe to Western Canada, Western US, Japan and Asia via that route. 

[Stefan Kotsch]

11 minutes ago, rmgill said:

Ending the war with some degree of stalemate is probably in the cards

This will undoubtedly be the case. But under what conditions?

Edited January 11 by Stefan Kotsch

[rmgill]

And Ukraine was allowed to be under the bus back in 2014 when Russia took Crimea and the west didn't do anything. 

[Stefan Kotsch]

1 minute ago, rmgill said:

and the west didn't do anything

This.

[Rick]

17 hours ago, Stefan Kotsch said:

That will certainly be the case. But the signal to Putin is, Look, we're all just crooks and we're going to negotiate a good deal because of it. In the end, the only thing that matters to us is money. And we let a few players jump over the edge.

A good question. Is the USA outside the Western values? How consistently is the EU committed to this? Maybe all the talk about Western values (of which the USA is so endlessly proud) is just empty talk?

The U.S.A. is not outside Western values, but is a younger variation of them in that there seems to be a bit more individualism and individual responsibility in the U.S., especially in the more rural parts of the U.S., compared to Europe. 

Europe has had centuries of geographically smaller entities compared to the U.S. forming countries that have learned to tolerate, more or less, their neighbors and themselves. The U.S. obviously has not had the same circumstances and is separated by distance from Europe. This has been a blessing for the U.S. as we can observe what is going on in Europe without being directly involved in it. 

To the average U.S. citizen, I would say that even though we know Europe is made of many different countries, there is an overall European "group think" when considering relations with Russia and Ukraine. Russia bad, Ukraine good which is the same view as the U.S. The main difference however, in the U.S. Russia  is seen as Europe's responsibility to counter, not the U.S. as the U.S. has been responsible three times in the 20th century saving Western values in Europe form Europe. Time for Europe to grow up and handle its own responsibilities. 

I do apologize for the long post, but the lack of European responsibility throughout the 20th century and into this one is disgusting. 

[Rick]

14 hours ago, Stefan Kotsch said:

This.

Agree but I think rmgill would be a little more accurate if wrote Europe instead of the West. 

[Yama]

56 minutes ago, Rick said:

The U.S.A. is not outside Western values...

...yet.

[Stuart Galbraith]

8 minutes ago, Yama said:

...yet.

Give it 4 years and a favourable press. It will break itself free of the slime of liberal values, I know it will.

[rmgill]

4 hours ago, Rick said:

Agree but I think rmgill would be a little more accurate if wrote Europe instead of the West. 

Relative to Ukraine, that's rather accurate. Draw a line north south through Kiev. All the countries west of that are inclusive of the "did nothing". From the Baltic states (not really expected to act alone in this given the size disparity) to Poland (same as with the Baltic States really) and Germany and the rest of the EU/NATO. Tilt the line a little anti-clockwise and you can include Turkey in this (also in NATO). 

Though the Nordic Countries did have a Come to Jesus moment, so there IS that. 

Western powers, NATO, EU, US Allies, nations supposedly guaranteeing Ukraine's security, etc. 

Hopefully that's sufficient clarifying language to explain my short hand. 

[Roman Alymov]

20 hours ago, rmgill said:

And Ukraine was allowed to be under the bus back in 2014 when Russia took Crimea and the west didn't do anything. 

Actually, back in 2014 West took part of Russia named Ukraine, while comprador pro-Western administration of RF onle dared to save Crimea and portion of Donbass - and later attempted to push this portion of Donbass back into Ukraine to reunite with their London palaces.

Edited January 12 by Roman Alymov

[RETAC21]

7 hours ago, Rick said:

The U.S.A. is not outside Western values, but is a younger variation of them in that there seems to be a bit more individualism and individual responsibility in the U.S., especially in the more rural parts of the U.S., compared to Europe. 

Europe has had centuries of geographically smaller entities compared to the U.S. forming countries that have learned to tolerate, more or less, their neighbors and themselves. The U.S. obviously has not had the same circumstances and is separated by distance from Europe. This has been a blessing for the U.S. as we can observe what is going on in Europe without being directly involved in it. 

To the average U.S. citizen, I would say that even though we know Europe is made of many different countries, there is an overall European "group think" when considering relations with Russia and Ukraine. Russia bad, Ukraine good which is the same view as the U.S. The main difference however, in the U.S. Russia  is seen as Europe's responsibility to counter, not the U.S. as the U.S. has been responsible three times in the 20th century saving Western values in Europe form Europe. Time for Europe to grow up and handle its own responsibilities. 

I do apologize for the long post, but the lack of European responsibility throughout the 20th century and into this one is disgusting. 

For someone that freely admits that he has no clue about foreign affairs, you sure come across as preachy. And on top of that, clueless.

Nothing is keeping the US in Europe other than what the USians vote, you think Europeans would be able to force the US to defend Europe if the US wanted out? ask the South Vietnamese or the Afghans how well that worked for them.

[RETAC21]

56 minutes ago, Roman Alymov said:

Actually, back in 2014 West took part of Russia named Ukraine, while comprador pro-Western administration of RF onle dared to save Crimea and portion of Donbass - and later attempted to push this portion of Donbass back into Ukraine to reunite with their London palaces.

Strange definition of "save" since both places are objectively worse now than they were then.

[Rick]

2 minutes ago, RETAC21 said:

For someone that freely admits that he has no clue about foreign affairs, you sure come across as preachy. And on top of that, clueless.

Nothing is keeping the US in Europe other than what the USians vote, you think Europeans would be able to force the US to defend Europe if the US wanted out? ask the South Vietnamese or the Afghans how well that worked for them.

Current on foreign affairs, not much. Has knowledge of European history, some. Truth in what I posted, yes.

[RETAC21]

17 minutes ago, Rick said:

Current on foreign affairs, not much. Has knowledge of European history, some. Truth in what I posted, yes.

Because you are not up to date on the first and second, third is evidently not true.

Like I wrote, if you want out of European affairs, you need to change your vote in the US. US presence in Europe is a direct consequence of US voter decisions.

[Roman Alymov]

9 hours ago, RETAC21 said:

Strange definition of "save" since both places are objectively worse now than they were then.

Crimea is definitely way better then it was while part of "independent Ukraine" - it is not surprising taking into account amount of investments poured in, and reuniting with much more prosperous and well-run country. Donbass is no doubt doing worse - again, decade of staying in "gray zone" under artillery shelling and with all motivated leaders stamped out by Kremlin to ease opposition for pushing it back into Ukraine...

[Pavel Novak]

2 hours ago, Roman Alymov said:

Crimea is definitely way better then it was while part of "independent Ukraine" - it is not surprising taking into account amount of investments poured in, and reuniting with much more prosperous and well-run country. Donbass is no doubt doing worse - again, decade of staying in "gray zone" under artillery shelling and with all motivated leaders stamped out by Kremlin to ease opposition for pushing it back into Ukraine...

Donbas leaders weren't stamped for some negotiations with Ukraine but to allow Muscovites plunder this area without any restrictions.

[Roman Alymov]

6 minutes ago, Pavel Novak said:

Donbas leaders weren't stamped for some negotiations with Ukraine but to allow Muscovites plunder this area without any restrictions.

Plunger of what? This trerritory, after three decades of "independent Ukraine", was economic ryin by Russian standards. Now, despite of third year of massive investments in infrastructure etc., it is still not up to Russian regional standards.

[seahawk]

But already much better than under the rule of the "Ukraine".

[Roman Alymov]

10 minutes ago, seahawk said:

But already much better than under the rule of the "Ukraine".

It depends on what metrics you use.

[Stuart Galbraith]

3 hours ago, Roman Alymov said:

Crimea is definitely way better then it was while part of "independent Ukraine" - it is not surprising taking into account amount of investments poured in, and reuniting with much more prosperous and well-run country. Donbass is no doubt doing worse - again, decade of staying in "gray zone" under artillery shelling and with all motivated leaders stamped out by Kremlin to ease opposition for pushing it back into Ukraine...

Without reliable supplies of water, under missile bombardment, connected by a shakey bridge to the Russian motherland that could blow up at any moment. Who could possibly doubt it?

[Mighty_Zuk]

10 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Without reliable supplies of water, under missile bombardment, connected by a shakey bridge to the Russian motherland that could blow up at any moment. Who could possibly doubt it?

To that I'll add that as soon as Crimea became a Russian territory, it was militarily invaded and used as a base to attack other countries.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Well yes, exactly. And the same siebel ferry experts that extolled not doing anything then, now extoll us abandoning Ukraine and assuming the same thing wont happen again, which of course at length it will.

[mandeb48]

 

Maybe Denmark should ask for the F16s it delivered to Argentina and Ukraine back. I might need them and not to resist a Russian or Chinese attack precisely.

 

 

[mandeb48]

What surprises me most about this situation is the lack of reaction in the world. It is not the first time that a strong country wants to take something of value from a weaker one. but at least they tried to invent some excuse so that the theft would not be so obscene. But hey, if Uncle Sam wants the resources of Greenland, the resources of Greenland will have

 

and those from Canada, and those from Panama and those from......

Edited January 13 by mandeb48