Angrybk Posted January 4 Posted January 4 Wondering if anybody can recommend a good (English-language) military history book on the subject. Doing cursory Googling and only found this one, which almost looks like some weird AI-generated thing, not too promising.
Stuart Galbraith Posted January 5 Posted January 5 Dont know if this is any help? https://archive.org/details/seedsofdiscordde00whit_0/page/n9/mode/2up
Argus Posted January 7 Posted January 7 I'm not sure such a creature actually exists. The French seem to have the same sort of issue with the 40-45 period that the Spanish have the Franco years, only more so plus its extra embarrassing. I don't know if anything has changed, but many moons ago I was involved in writing an alternative history based on France fighting on after the fall of metropolitan France. This was actually a semi-serious exercise, written in English, to let the French talk about and explore this period with running afoul of the all the conventional cultural hang-ups. Anyway, I was told at the time France did not have an official history of WWII, it was simply too difficult to write. Patriots, Pragmatists and Putains ended up making the same choices, choices which look very different depending on which end of history your seeing them from.
R011 Posted January 7 Posted January 7 1 hour ago, Argus said: I'm not sure such a creature actually exists. The French seem to have the same sort of issue with the 40-45 period that the Spanish have the Franco years, only more so plus its extra embarrassing. I don't know if anything has changed, but many moons ago I was involved in writing an alternative history based on France fighting on after the fall of metropolitan France. This was actually a semi-serious exercise, written in English, to let the French talk about and explore this period with running afoul of the all the conventional cultural hang-ups. Anyway, I was told at the time France did not have an official history of WWII, it was simply too difficult to write. Patriots, Pragmatists and Putains ended up making the same choices, choices which look very different depending on which end of history your seeing them from. Putains or Petains? Both words could be appropriate.
Stuart Galbraith Posted January 7 Posted January 7 6 hours ago, Argus said: I'm not sure such a creature actually exists. The French seem to have the same sort of issue with the 40-45 period that the Spanish have the Franco years, only more so plus its extra embarrassing. I don't know if anything has changed, but many moons ago I was involved in writing an alternative history based on France fighting on after the fall of metropolitan France. This was actually a semi-serious exercise, written in English, to let the French talk about and explore this period with running afoul of the all the conventional cultural hang-ups. Anyway, I was told at the time France did not have an official history of WWII, it was simply too difficult to write. Patriots, Pragmatists and Putains ended up making the same choices, choices which look very different depending on which end of history your seeing them from. im reminded of the preface to Schirers 'Rise and fall of the Third Reich', where he was advised by French historians to not write it, as it would require 100, maybe 200 years to get the right perspective on it. There was a book I was advised on a podcast to get, although I regret not read it yet. Marc Bloc's 'Strange Defeat', apparently about the political and military decline of France prior to the German invasion which proved instrumental in hollowing the French state out. Written by a member of the French resistance whom sadly wouldnt live long enough to see it published. Might be a good starting point I guess.
Angrybk Posted January 9 Author Posted January 9 After doing a lot of Googling I think I have to agree with Argus, there just isn't a reputable general-history "here's what Free France did" book out there. Does seem like a gap. All I got was this (yeah yeah, Paddy Mayne was actually pretty sophisticated and probably not gay, blah blah)
Tim the Tank Nut Posted January 9 Posted January 9 I've got a book at home that has a fairly long chapter about France in WW2. It might be "Why the Allies Won". In the book the chapter is something along the lines of: The Mediterranean road to France's military redemption. I think it's a great read. It goes into quite a bit of detail regarding the reunification of the regular French military and the Free French forces which was a very large challenge. The French forces did exceedingly well in several areas but their colonial troops got chewed up badly in Italy and there were serious cultural issues with those troops as well. Even so Juin did a really good job. At a lower level LeClerc also did well if he could be described as impetuous. There was another French General whose name escapes me (there was a "T" involved) that really kicked ass. I'm a bit of a Francophile as it is but that part of French history is overshadowed by the divide between the military that left France and those that stayed behind. For France, it was the central issue, something that the Allies couldn't grasp.
Stuart Galbraith Posted January 9 Posted January 9 IIRC, there was a considerable number of rape cases of Italian women among French colonial troops, so seemingly there were discipline problems. Im enjoying reading about the French resistance. There is a book on SOE/OSS Agent Virginia Hall, and it made me realise the resistance was split along organizational lines considerably more than Id previously appreciated. It took strong leaders like Hall or Nancy wake to point them all in the right direction.
Angrybk Posted January 9 Author Posted January 9 Was inspired to make that post because I just finished Paxton's book on Vichy France, which is brilliant but a little hard to read now that the stuff he pointed out is common knowledge (they were basically Diet Coke Nazis). France after the fall had such a weird combo of cowardly a-holes and heroes (like, Bernard Fall is one of the most hardcore people ever).
Angrybk Posted January 9 Author Posted January 9 1 hour ago, Tim the Tank Nut said: I've got a book at home that has a fairly long chapter about France in WW2. It might be "Why the Allies Won". In the book the chapter is something along the lines of: The Mediterranean road to France's military redemption. I think it's a great read. It goes into quite a bit of detail regarding the reunification of the regular French military and the Free French forces which was a very large challenge. The French forces did exceedingly well in several areas but their colonial troops got chewed up badly in Italy and there were serious cultural issues with those troops as well. Even so Juin did a really good job. At a lower level LeClerc also did well if he could be described as impetuous. There was another French General whose name escapes me (there was a "T" involved) that really kicked ass. I'm a bit of a Francophile as it is but that part of French history is overshadowed by the divide between the military that left France and those that stayed behind. For France, it was the central issue, something that the Allies couldn't grasp. I'm also a dedicated Francophile, especially after taking my daughter to Paris last year and stuffing her full of chocolate and freaking her out at the catacombs. Amazing city that actually seems to have its sh*t together.
Tim the Tank Nut Posted January 9 Posted January 9 I like the countryside better than the city. People talk about Parisians being rude but have you ever been to a big US city? It's a big city thing, not a Paris thing. The lifestyle speed is great fun for a visit but I probably couldn't live at 60% throttle for any length of time. I don't know where that book could be but if I find it I will firm up my details. France's misery in WW2 stems all the way back to the loss of fighting men under Napoleon. Then the tragedy of WW1 (1870 really wasn't that big a deal as they payed the reparations quite quickly) compounded things. The subjugation under the Nazis reminded France that there are some things well worth dying for and it rankled the French that didn't understand it quite a bit. An odd people but I like them anyway.
sunday Posted January 9 Posted January 9 2 hours ago, Tim the Tank Nut said: There was another French General whose name escapes me (there was a "T" involved) that really kicked ass. This one? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_de_Lattre_de_Tassigny Back on topic, some things in the history of France are considered too shameful to be discussed in polite company, like the genocide of the Vendeé. What happened during WWII and the immediate aftermath is another of those things.
Stuart Galbraith Posted January 9 Posted January 9 2 hours ago, Angrybk said: Was inspired to make that post because I just finished Paxton's book on Vichy France, which is brilliant but a little hard to read now that the stuff he pointed out is common knowledge (they were basically Diet Coke Nazis). France after the fall had such a weird combo of cowardly a-holes and heroes (like, Bernard Fall is one of the most hardcore people ever). There is a very good book called 'The King of Nazi Paris', about a hoodlum called Henri Lafont. He was a third rate thief who fell in with the Abwehr and later the SD, and basically ran the black market in Paris, did interrogations, even supplied colonial troops for the SS to fight the Maquis. In his spare time he did cocaine, champagne, as many showgirl as he could lay his hands on, and collected orchids. Basically he was an SD auxiliary, doing all the extra legal jobs the Germans didn't want to do, and had a gang that made the dirty dozen look upstanding. One of the more repellant characters in SD employ was an German ex Sergeant in the Foreign Legion. His interrogations involved plunging the victim in an ice cold bath and repeatedly near drowning them, whilst his girlfriend sat on the edge of it taking notes, whilst another guy played a piano, presumably to keep things jolly. They were all completely nuts. https://www.amazon.co.uk/King-Nazi-Paris-Gangsters-Gestapo/dp/1785905465
Tim the Tank Nut Posted January 10 Posted January 10 de Tassigny was the one, thank you. Not sure how I forgot him. Must be age related.
Angrybk Posted January 26 Author Posted January 26 Actually reading Paxton's Vichy France history from 1973, which is pretty brilliant and chilling. I just think there's got to be something similar about Free France; lots of De Gaulle bios obviously, but nothing that provides an overview of anything that's not De Gaulle-centric. Just kind of a weird gap.
Stuart Galbraith Posted January 27 Posted January 27 Just as an aside, has anyone read anything on occupied Paris in WW2? Granted there was a fair bit in the Henry Lafont book above, but quite a lot that wasnt. I only recently learned there was a 9pm curfew every night. Must have put a crimp on the nighttime shows.
RETAC21 Posted January 27 Posted January 27 On 1/10/2025 at 2:30 PM, Tim the Tank Nut said: de Tassigny was the one, thank you. Not sure how I forgot him. Must be age related. de Lattre de Tassigny https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_de_Lattre_de_Tassigny
Tim the Tank Nut Posted January 28 Posted January 28 I think De Gaulle was a little jealous of de Lattre's military abilities.
Stuart Galbraith Posted January 28 Posted January 28 7 hours ago, Tim the Tank Nut said: I think De Gaulle was a little jealous of de Lattre's military abilities. Fixed it for you.
RETAC21 Posted January 28 Posted January 28 13 hours ago, Tim the Tank Nut said: I think De Gaulle was a little jealous of de Lattre's military abilities. De Lattre was one of France's rising stars in 1940, one of the younger generals, although he remained with Vichy he was one of the less cooperative officers with the Germans and marked as a Gaullist sympathiser. When the Germans came over the walls, he was the only general that didn't order his troops to lay down arms and was arrested by the Gendarmerie for his troubles. When he managed to escape in 1943, he flew to London and met De Gaulle (who had been his CO) and had a cordial encounter and from there he went to take command of the 1st French Army. Mixing former Free French with Vichy and colonials was troublesome, to say the least, which is why the former Free French units became "independent" and the colonial units were "whitened" with the FFI during the French campaign.
Angrybk Posted January 28 Author Posted January 28 On 1/27/2025 at 12:13 AM, Stuart Galbraith said: Just as an aside, has anyone read anything on occupied Paris in WW2? Granted there was a fair bit in the Henry Lafont book above, but quite a lot that wasnt. I only recently learned there was a 9pm curfew every night. Must have put a crimp on the nighttime shows. Not exactly what you're looking for, but I really enjoyed Beevor's Paris After the Liberation. I know that some of his pure-military-history stuff gets a bad rap, but he seems to be on a lot firmer ground with the political/social material.
Stuart Galbraith Posted January 28 Posted January 28 Hmm, that might be useful for something else I was looking at. Thank you.
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