Destroyers' 5-inch guns vs drones

[Dawes]

Seems like technology could come up with some more effective rounds:

https://www.twz.com/sea/uss-carneys-red-sea-operations-highlight-5-inch-deck-guns-anti-air-capability

[sunday]

Old shrapnel round technology could be very cheap and moderately efficient.

[Yama]

"“We were in berthing and heard [an announcement over the ship’s 1MC intercom system] ‘clear the weatherdecks,’ and I remember thinking, ‘what does that mean? I’ve never heard that before,’” Fire Controlman (AEGIS) 2nd Class Justin Parker, a SPY-1 radar technician, said in the Navy release.

Kinda funny actually. "Action stations? What's that? "

Anyways, seems the gun worked as intended, however RoF of modern 5-inchers tends to be somewhat pedestrian against more challenging targets.

[Ol Paint]

The Mk45's published ROF remains somewhat underwhelming at 20rpm.  The modernized Mk42 and the OTOBreda Compact 127/54 would seem to be better DP guns at 34 and 40 rpm.  Range and ASuW capability would still seem to offer benefits over the 57mm BAE/Bofors and OTO 76mm SuperRapid.  And all of these would offer a better cost ratio than firing missiles of almost any stripe. 

The five-inchers improved standoff range as part of the layered defence could make the decision to not use a missile a little easier.  Right now, the risk of waiting until the drone is in gun range means there's no fallback for a miss.  Pushing the outer edge of "cheap bullet" engagement range out to 10-15 miles while keeping the last ditch point defense layer as backup. 

I am wondering if we might see a 2.75" AA variant of the APKWS, since we seem to be wedded to missiles for everything.

Doug

[shep854]

"I am wondering if we might see a 2.75" AA variant of the APKWS, since we seem to be wedded to missiles for everything."--Ol Paint 

The Mighty Mouse started out as an unguided air-to-air rocket, adapted to unguided ground attack rocket, then received laser guidance, so full circle to SAM doesn't seem too wild!

[EchoFiveMike]

Kinetic drone defeat is about conservation of resources.  That's why all these AA missile based ideas are fucking stupid.  Using $5-$10+mil missiles of which you have only a few dozen per ship is the idea of literal retards.  Any ideas along those lines are the work of drooling retards or shameless tax eaters stealing from the public, mostly the later.  

Until they get the EW piece sorted, perhaps something like solid state lasers or directed microwaves or whatever, we're back to layered WW2 anti air defenses.  5" with cheap prox fuzed, steel  PFF shells are your outer layer, then something like 40mm Fast Forty with prox, or 35mm Millenium with AHEAD are middle layer then CIWS is last layer.  Suddenly 76mm OTO is nice again, since it has acceptable overlap of the outer/middle layers.  S/F....Ken M 

 

[sunday]

Italian Regia Marina went to 76mm Super Rapid for CIWS quite a long time ago. Now they should be reaping the benefits of that good decision.

[lucklucky]

No monarchy so it is not Regia Marina anymore, but Marina Militare. That said not only the Italian navy, but also French, Germans and Danish navies employed the 76mm to down Houthi drones. 

[sunday]

2 hours ago, lucklucky said:

No monarchy so it is not Regia Marina anymore, but Marina Militare. That said not only the Italian navy, but also French, Germans and Danish navies employed the 76mm to down Houthi drones. 

The Italians even retired their Dardo twin 40mm.

[lucklucky]

Yes, they went guided rounds for the 76, but i am not aware if they used it themselves in Red Sea. 

[Ivanhoe]

With the ease of building low-RCS drones these days, I'd kinda rather USN 5 inch mounts simply fire a time-fused round.

As for 2.75 inchers, 100 years from now USSF will be shooting them at the invading extraterrestrial arachnids.

I'm a fan of the 76mm products. If we're going to put frigate-class ships in harms way, I'd like to see frigate-sized boats with at least two 76mm autoguns. Use the autoguns for drones and Boghammers, use AShMs for bigger pricier targets.

Only downside is the seemingly small ready round magazine capacity. With swarming attacks likely, either more mounts or a faster ready-round mag reloading option might be needed.

[sunday]

13 minutes ago, Ivanhoe said:

Only downside is the seemingly small ready round magazine capacity.

That could be the problem of the new, lightweight Sovraponte 76mm mount without deck penetration, that only has 76 projectiles in its magazine according to this and this.

Edited December 10, 2024 by sunday

[RETAC21]

17 hours ago, lucklucky said:

Yes, they went guided rounds for the 76, but i am not aware if they used it themselves in Red Sea. 

They used this: https://www.leonardo.com/en/press-release-detail/-/detail/the-strales-76mm-system-with-dart-guided-ammunition

"The DART projectiles are guided by a radio beam that follows the target by means of homing system. The projectile is fitted with a proximity fuze, but there were many hits during the firing trials."

[Ivanhoe]

19 hours ago, sunday said:

That could be the problem of the new, lightweight Sovraponte 76mm mount without deck penetration, that only has 76 projectiles in its magazine according to this and this.

If the western world (including Japan, Philippines, Oz, etc) would get its collective head out of its beehind, enough orders for a 3rd-gen 76mm mount could be accumulated to convince OTO to build a "supermount" which could reload the ready round magazine in a few seconds, with a deep stack of supply under decks.

Of course, the cheaper/simpler option would be to simply bolt on more of those Sovraponte 76mm mounts. 1st wave of drones/missiles, engage with mounts 1 and 6. 2nd wave, mounts 2 and 5. etc. But desk real estate would need to be sacrificed for that approach.

[sunday]

20 minutes ago, Ivanhoe said:

If the western world (including Japan, Philippines, Oz, etc) would get its collective head out of its beehind, enough orders for a 3rd-gen 76mm mount could be accumulated to convince OTO to build a "supermount" which could reload the ready round magazine in a few seconds, with a deep stack of supply under decks.

That would be the usual through-deck mount, whose last incarnation is the Super Rapid.

[Ivanhoe]

1 hour ago, sunday said:

That would be the usual through-deck mount, whose last incarnation is the Super Rapid.

My admittedly limited understanding is that those through-deck mounts can run through their ready round mag automatically, but reloading that mag is kinda manual.

 

[sunday]

8 minutes ago, Ivanhoe said:

My admittedly limited understanding is that those through-deck mounts can run through their ready round mag automatically, but reloading that mag is kinda manual.

 

Your understanding matches with the published information: http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_3-62_mk75.php

However, looks like reloading the below decks drum is easier than reloading the magazine in a Sovraponte.

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_3-62_mk75_Riveros_pic.jpg

[RETAC21]

37 minutes ago, Ivanhoe said:

My admittedly limited understanding is that those through-deck mounts can run through their ready round mag automatically, but reloading that mag is kinda manual.

 

https://electronics.leonardo.com/documents/16277707/18404219/Cannone+OTO+76_62+SR.pdf

The mount carries 80 rounds, that's a lot of steel

[lucklucky]

7 hours ago, RETAC21 said:

They used this: https://www.leonardo.com/en/press-release-detail/-/detail/the-strales-76mm-system-with-dart-guided-ammunition

"The DART projectiles are guided by a radio beam that follows the target by means of homing system. The projectile is fitted with a proximity fuze, but there were many hits during the firing trials."

They can use those or the "normal" rounds. Unless you have some source that confirms it we don't know what they employed.

[RETAC21]

3 minutes ago, lucklucky said:

They can use those or the "normal" rounds. Unless you have some source that confirms it we don't know what they employed.

True, it's not clear.

https://www.twz.com/sea/italian-destroyer-guns-down-houthi-drone-with-76mm-super-rapid-cannon

"Italian media reports suggest that the Caio Duilio fired seven or eight rounds from one or more of its three OTO Melara Strales 76mm Super-Rapid guns. While these are dual-purpose weapons also capable of striking surface and land targets, the guns are optimized for the anti-missile and anti-drone defense role, for which they fire DART projectiles that employ radio-command guidance for accuracy. " 

https://svppbellum.blogspot.com/2024/03/crisi-del-mar-rosso-operazione-aspides.html

L’arma, che ha una cadenza di tiro di 120 colpi/minuto, ha impiegato una raffica di 6 colpi da 76 mm con munizionamento di tipo HE-PF di Leonardo Elettronica, munito di radio-spoletta di prossimità 3AP (Three Action Plus) in grado di calcolare il punto di scoppio del proietto in modo ottimale

[shep854]

When the Navy went all missile for AD, the Mk 42 was considered obsolete, so the fleet converted to the single-purpose Mk 45 in the interest of simplicity and reliability.   The Mk 42 had a RoF of 40 rpm, downrated to 28 and could elevate to 85 degrees, compared to the Mk 45's max of 65 degrees.

[lucklucky]

On 12/11/2024 at 7:50 PM, RETAC21 said:

True, it's not clear.

https://www.twz.com/sea/italian-destroyer-guns-down-houthi-drone-with-76mm-super-rapid-cannon

"Italian media reports suggest that the Caio Duilio fired seven or eight rounds from one or more of its three OTO Melara Strales 76mm Super-Rapid guns. While these are dual-purpose weapons also capable of striking surface and land targets, the guns are optimized for the anti-missile and anti-drone defense role, for which they fire DART projectiles that employ radio-command guidance for accuracy. " 

https://svppbellum.blogspot.com/2024/03/crisi-del-mar-rosso-operazione-aspides.html

L’arma, che ha una cadenza di tiro di 120 colpi/minuto, ha impiegato una raffica di 6 colpi da 76 mm con munizionamento di tipo HE-PF di Leonardo Elettronica, munito di radio-spoletta di prossimità 3AP (Three Action Plus) in grado di calcolare il punto di scoppio del proietto in modo ottimale

If the bolded part is correct it was a non guided round.

[EchoFiveMike]

On 12/10/2024 at 12:46 PM, Ivanhoe said:

With the ease of building low-RCS drones these days, I'd kinda rather USN 5 inch mounts simply fire a time-fused round.

As for 2.75 inchers, 100 years from now USSF will be shooting them at the invading extraterrestrial arachnids.

I'm a fan of the 76mm products. If we're going to put frigate-class ships in harms way, I'd like to see frigate-sized boats with at least two 76mm autoguns. Use the autoguns for drones and Boghammers, use AShMs for bigger pricier targets.

Only downside is the seemingly small ready round magazine capacity. With swarming attacks likely, either more mounts or a faster ready-round mag reloading option might be needed.

A 5" AHEAD round, ie modern expensive Shrapnel shell,  using say .500 ball bearings (55/lb) would be "interesting."  Would also be good vs all the traditional shrapnel targets, light boats, troops in the open, etc.  S/F....Ken M

[Ivanhoe]

Sounds good to me, but the idea of putting two 5 inch mounts on modern destroyers would cause USN heads to explode like so many popcorn kernels.

Adding two (or more) Oerlikon GDM-008 mounts for the 2nd layer would be nice.

[shep854]

8 hours ago, Ivanhoe said:

Sounds good to me, but the idea of putting two 5 inch mounts on modern destroyers would cause USN heads to explode like so many popcorn kernels.

Adding two (or more) Oerlikon GDM-008 mounts for the 2nd layer would be nice.

And resurrect cruisers with the 8" lightweight gun.