The end of NATO - good for Europe?

[RETAC21]

10 minutes ago, Murph said:

THIS is the PROBLEM.  Why are we the world's ATM?

 

Yet this has nothing to do with NATO: "In 2023, Sub-Saharan Africa received the most humanitarian aid from the United States, with disbursements reaching approximately seven billion U.S. dollars. The Middle-East and North Africa was the second-highest recipient of humanitarian aid from the U.S., with disbursements reaching over three billion U.S. dollars in 2023."

[R011]

2 hours ago, RETAC21 said:

Yet this has nothing to do with NATO: "In 2023, Sub-Saharan Africa received the most humanitarian aid from the United States, with disbursements reaching approximately seven billion U.S. dollars. The Middle-East and North Africa was the second-highest recipient of humanitarian aid from the U.S., with disbursements reaching over three billion U.S. dollars in 2023."

And the list excludes most of Europe.  It would be more illustrative if it were not only more inclusive, but was per capital or as a percent of GDP.

[Stuart Galbraith]

15 hours ago, Murph said:

What about the invincible European Union Defense Force?  It is a small force....  Also I just see no compelling US interest in Europe anymore, the Cold War is over, and has been over for 30 years.  Nato should have gone away long ago, but like taxes, tolls, and the clap it just hands on.

Murph, you wouldnt see a compelling reason to defend Europe if Vlad the Impaler returned to the throne of Romania, the Borgia's took over Italy, and Godzilla embarked on a rampage from end to end. Because your beliefs are ideological in nature, not logical.NATO continues because Russia remains a threat. You refuse to accept this because you clearly get your news from Alt Right Wing newsgroups and are not paying any attention to what happens in Ukraine. Do a deep dive into 'Bucha', and tell me with a straight face that Russia isnt a threat.

US exports to Europe in 2022 were 308 billion. If you think you are richer country without all that as we disappear under mushroom clouds, then be my guest.

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

16 hours ago, seahawk said:

How did the US get involved? Why should the US care?

Because the Nazi's declared war on the United States. They also recognised that access to the European market was a good enough reason to stay interested. Still is for that matter.

Nobody is asking for charity. Even the Marshall plan was not an act of charity. It was to get Europe back on its feet, both so it could help defend itself, and be worth trading with.

Americans dont think in terms like that now, its all high Toryism, its what they pay in, not what they get out. Funnily enough the 70 years of peace and no nuclear war, and the resulting excellent trading markets are never compared to the expenditure. Funny that, almost as if someone has an agenda.

[seahawk]

Ukraine declared war on the US?

[Stuart Galbraith]

Cute Seahawk, cute.

 

[jmsaari]

14 hours ago, Murph said:

THIS is the PROBLEM.  Why are we the world's ATM?

 

The chart is the problem, no other single entity comes close to the US in GDP or population, and listing just the top 10 therefore leaves out most of the world, 24 of the 27 EU countries for example. 

2023, comparing EU (450 M population, 18.3 trillion USD GDP) and US (350 M, 29.7 trillion):

USA humantiarian aid 9.5 billion, development aid 18.55 billion = 0.10% GDP, or 80 USD/capita

EU 6.2 billion hum, 48.0 billion dev = 0.26% GDP, or 107 USD/capita.

[Stuart Galbraith]

'You cant bring facts in here, this is the war room!'

[Murph]

Yes, Stuart, but Europe seems to want a perpetual Marshal plan, and a perpetual deployment of US troops in a theater that is essentially irrelevant in this day and age.  Russia is a paper tiger, if it was the big, bad, scary Soviet Union, Ukraine would have been a speed bump.  Zhukov would have had all of Ukraine in three weeks.  The hyperventilating of politicos over the "Big Bad Bear" just just laughable.  China is the danger, the threat, along with the crazy derka derkas who, regrettably everyone supported and armed.  Now we have to deal with them.  I put the derka derkas as a bigger threat than China right now, which is saying something.  Europe has already surrendered to them, so it has become irrelevant.  Go to the UK and get arrest for wrongthink.  I never would have imagined it. 

Farage for PM.  It might be the only thing that saves you. 

[Stuart Galbraith]

If we have to turn the country Fascist in order to save it, he can shove it. It was the same argument put forward by Mosley, and he was completely wrong as it turned out. These nasty little chancers always are.

Here is another thing you might have missed. People are getting poorer. Its not going to take long before they make the connection between the man that gave them Brexit and the head of Reform. Oh, they havent figured it out yet, but they will. It always catches up with these populists in the end.

China might be your threat, but its the other side of the planet for us. Europe first. 

[Murph]

And I understand your need for Europe first, and for you in Europe that is a great thing.  A great thing.  For the US, not so much.  

[urbanoid]

1 minute ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

If we have to turn the country Fascist in order to save it, he can shove it. It was the same argument put forward by Mosley, and he was completely wrong as it turned out. These nasty little chancers always are.

Here is another thing you might have missed. People are getting poorer. Its not going to take long before they make the connection between the man that gave them Brexit and the head of Reform. Oh, they havent figured it out yet, but they will. It always catches up with these populists in the end.

China might be your threat, but its the other side of the planet for us. Europe first. 

If mass deportations of several millions of undesirables would be 'fascist', that's the way to go. Unfortunately, Farage is not the guy to do that.

[Stuart Galbraith]

5 minutes ago, urbanoid said:

If mass deportations of several millions of undesirables would be 'fascist', that's the way to go. Unfortunately, Farage is not the guy to do that.

Farage isnt the kind of guy to do anything. In all his years, he hasnt achieved anything, other than pressure the Conservatives to have a Brexit vote. That literally is it, all he has to show for a lifetime in politics is making the British people poorer.

I dont have a much time for Tony Blair, but he is right about one thing. Populism is not about fixing problems, its about exploiting them to gain power. That is who Farage is. I predict that if he became PM, he woudl leave office with immigration as bad as he entered it. He is like Bojo, great at courting power, lousy at exercising it.

And once again, we are still over 83 percent white. Thats 20 percent ahead of our American friends. For all the narratives of swimming in a sea of foreign skins, its possible to go entire years without seeing a single one where I live. Just because people keep repeating a narrative, doestn make it so, and Farage is just the type to keep repeating narratives because they have a good sell.

 

Edited December 9, 2024 by Stuart Galbraith

[Stuart Galbraith]

8 minutes ago, Murph said:

And I understand your need for Europe first, and for you in Europe that is a great thing.  A great thing.  For the US, not so much.  

Tough. Guess you are going to have to wait at the back of the queue next time you want the Europeans to form a posse.

[urbanoid]

1 minute ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Farage isnt the kind of guy to do anything. In all his years, he hasnt achieved anything, other than pressure the Conservatives to have a Brexit vote. That literally is it, all he has to show for a lifetime in politics is making the British people poorer.

I dont have a much time for Tony Blair, but he is right about one thing. Populism is not about fixing problems, its about exploiting them to gain power. That is who Farage is. I predict that if he became PM, he woudl leave office with immigration as bad as he entered it. He is like Bojo, great at courting power, lousy at exercising it.

And once again, we are still over 83 percent white. Thats 20 percent ahead of our American friends. For all the narratives of swimming in a sea of foreign skins, its impossible to go entire years without seeing a single one where I live. Just because people keep repeating a narrative, doestn make it so, and Farrage is just the type to keep repeating narratives because they have a good sell.

 

Let's say that a lot of those who the USians classify as Hispanic are white, a lot more are largely white and, most importantly, a significant portion of them are Western culturally (or could be made so).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Mexicans

You cannot say the same about most of the non-European rabble infesting your country.

 

[Murph]

7 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Tough. Guess you are going to have to wait at the back of the queue next time you want the Europeans to form a posse.

And that is just fine by me. 

[Murph]

Hispanics, are classified as "White" on the census, with a drop down check as Hispanic.  So for census purposes, Hispanics are white.  

[Murph]

I so hope and pray that the US tells them NO!  A resounding NO!  No, and Never to NATO.

https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2024/12/09/zelensky-open-to-western-troops-providing-security-to-end-war-in-ukraine/

KYIV, Ukraine (AP) – Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said Monday that he’s open to the potential deployment of Western troops in Ukraine to guarantee the country´s security as part of a broad effort to end the almost three-year war with Russia.

The deployment would be a step toward Ukraine joining NATO, Zelenskyy said in a post on his Telegram channel.

“But before that, we must have a clear understanding of when Ukraine will be in the European Union and when Ukraine will be in NATO,” Zelenskyy said.

[R011]

3 hours ago, Murph said:

Yes, Stuart, but Europe seems to want a perpetual Marshal plan, and a perpetual deployment of US troops in a theater that is essentially irrelevant in this day and age.  Russia is a paper tiger, if it was the big, bad, scary Soviet Union, Ukraine would have been a speed bump.  Zhukov would have had all of Ukraine in three weeks.  The hyperventilating of politicos over the "Big Bad Bear" just just laughable.  China is the danger, the threat, along with the crazy derka derkas who, regrettably everyone supported and armed.  Now we have to deal with them.  I put the derka derkas as a bigger threat than China right now, which is saying something.  Europe has already surrendered to them, so it has become irrelevant.  Go to the UK and get arrest for wrongthink.  I never would have imagined it. 

Farage for PM.  It might be the only thing that saves you. 

The reason Ukraine wasn't a speed bump is because the West, mostly Europe , helped out.

[old_goat]

3 hours ago, urbanoid said:

If mass deportations of several millions of undesirables would be 'fascist', that's the way to go. Unfortunately, Farage is not the guy to do that.

Stuart has no idea what "fascism" is. Typical leftist behavior, anybody with even the slightest patriotic ideas is a "fascist" for them. 

[seahawk]

13 hours ago, Murph said:

I so hope and pray that the US tells them NO!  A resounding NO!  No, and Never to NATO.

https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2024/12/09/zelensky-open-to-western-troops-providing-security-to-end-war-in-ukraine/

KYIV, Ukraine (AP) – Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said Monday that he’s open to the potential deployment of Western troops in Ukraine to guarantee the country´s security as part of a broad effort to end the almost three-year war with Russia.

The deployment would be a step toward Ukraine joining NATO, Zelenskyy said in a post on his Telegram channel.

“But before that, we must have a clear understanding of when Ukraine will be in the European Union and when Ukraine will be in NATO,” Zelenskyy said.

I see no problem with the Ukraine being in the EU and NATO, if the US left NATO.

[Stuart Galbraith]

15 hours ago, Murph said:

And that is just fine by me. 

Have you asked any veterans whether its ok with them? Just because they are the ones that are going to be taking the extra casualties. Just a thought is all.

[Stuart Galbraith]

13 hours ago, Murph said:

I so hope and pray that the US tells them NO!  A resounding NO!  No, and Never to NATO.

https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2024/12/09/zelensky-open-to-western-troops-providing-security-to-end-war-in-ukraine/

KYIV, Ukraine (AP) – Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said Monday that he’s open to the potential deployment of Western troops in Ukraine to guarantee the country´s security as part of a broad effort to end the almost three-year war with Russia.

The deployment would be a step toward Ukraine joining NATO, Zelenskyy said in a post on his Telegram channel.

“But before that, we must have a clear understanding of when Ukraine will be in the European Union and when Ukraine will be in NATO,” Zelenskyy said.

You are going to struggle to keep Ukraine out of NATO after you leave.

[Stuart Galbraith]

11 hours ago, old_goat said:

Stuart has no idea what "fascism" is. Typical leftist behavior, anybody with even the slightest patriotic ideas is a "fascist" for them. 

Just some helpful terms, for those of you struggling with  reality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotism

Patriotism is the feeling of love, devotion, and a sense of attachment to a country or state. This attachment can be a combination of different feelings for things such as the language of one's homeland, and its ethnic, cultural, political, or historical aspects. It may encompass a set of concepts closely related to nationalism, mostly civic nationalism and sometimes cultural nationalism.^{[1][page needed][2]}

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism

Nationalism is an idea or movement that holds that the nation should be congruent with the state.^[1][2] As a movement, it presupposes the existence^[3] and tends to promote the interests of a particular nation,^[4] especially with the aim of gaining and maintaining its sovereignty (self-governance) over its perceived homeland to create a nation-state. It holds that each nation should govern itself, free from outside interference (self-determination), that a nation is a natural and ideal basis for a polity,^[5] and that the nation is the only rightful source of political power.^[4][6] It further aims to build and maintain a single national identity, based on a combination of shared social characteristics such as culture, ethnicity, geographic location, language, politics (or the government), religion, traditions and belief in a shared singular history,^[7][8] and to promote national unity or solidarity.^[4] There are various definitions of a "nation", which leads to different types of nationalism.^[9] The two main divergent forms are ethnic nationalism and civic nationalism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/ FASH-iz-əm) is a far-right, authoritarian, and ultranationalist political ideology and movement,^[1][2][3] characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.^[2][3] Opposed to anarchism, democracy, pluralism, egalitarianism, liberalism, socialism, and Marxism,^[4][5] fascism is at the far right of the traditional left–right spectrum.^[6][5][7]

 

 

Put simply, Patriotism is love of country. Nationalism is believing only someone born in that country can love it. And Fascism is killing or sending home everyone that isnt as white as an Albino's Foreskin.

Personally, Im particularly loving how you guys manage to conflate all three, so it helpfully excludes everyone that doesnt share your particular mania.

And what has this to do with NATO? Absolutely nothing.

 

 

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

12 hours ago, R011 said:

The reason Ukraine wasn't a speed bump is because the West, mostly Europe , helped out.

You can keep laying down statistics and evidence to that end, and he absolutely will not accept it.