HMNZS Manawanui reportedly sunk

[Allan W]

43 minutes ago, urbanoid said:

It suggests that it's quite likely that she was a diversity hire so the navy could show how progressive it is. Maybe the only way to make shitlibs care about (or at least not oppose) the military is allowing them to do their social engineering there, but it's not the proper way to go.

Nothing wrong with competent women in positions of leadership in general, but there shouldn't be any 'quotas' and the standards should be exactly the same as for men.  Neither should there be goals of making armed services (or their branches) 'less male and less white' and we have already seen examples of that too.

Suggests, without providing a shred of evidence that she wasn't qualified to command and that she was appointed as the CO in the name of diversity.

[sunday]

She did not command any Royal Navy vessel back in Blighty, and that notorious woke person, Jacinta Arden, was PM when the officer got her ship.

Some lawyers could say that is circumstantial evidence.

Edited October 7 by sunday

[sunday]

A recapitulation on video

 

[R011]

3 hours ago, Allan W said:

Character assassination from some anonymous internet poster hardly constitute "data" Sunday.  Maybe she was at fault, but how about we wait for the facts before assigning blame.

That's no fun and suits no agenda.

[Ol Paint]

On 10/6/2024 at 8:54 AM, sunday said:

There was that Norwegian frigate that sunk because female bridge officers were not in speaking terms, and they wanted to put the blame on the Spanish builder of the aforementioned frigate, and shortly afterwards that Spanish builder lost the contract for the new Constellation-class USN frigates.

There was also the story of that LCS with the unauthorized Starlink installation

I think the officers not being on speaking terms was supposed to be a factor in the USS Fitzgerald collision.  As I recall, the OOD and the officer in charge of the CIC at the time of the collision were supposed to be at odds.  It's alluded to in the summary report, but not explicitly stated, but more directly called out in the follow up investigation by RADM Fort.  The commander of the Fitzgerald was male.  So was the commander of the John S. McCain during her collision.

Regardless, sometimes mistakes happen, and sometimes people who should be competent, aren't.  See USS Cowpens, who suffered through Capt. Holly Graf's tenure before she got relieved in 2010.  But poor leadership doesn't follow chromosomes.  In 2012, Capt. Robert Marin was relieved from command of the Cowpens for an affair with a fellow captain's wife.  Then the ship went through the bizarre episode with Capt. Gregory Gombert, who hid in his cabin for nearly 3 months during deployment.  There's a whole list of bad officers throughout history.  And unlucky ones.

I'm not overly surprised a hydrographic vessel might end up aground--such vessels engaged in mapping should be well-equipped to avoid underwater obstacles, but are also likely to spend more time operating in proximity to underwater hazards, too.

Let's see what the investigation turns up.

Doug

P.S.

Edited October 7 by Ol Paint

[Ol Paint]

Watching the video by What Is Going On With Shipping, I have to say that the ship seems to have imitated Monty Python's castle.  Ran aground, caught fire, capsized, and sank vs:

Doug

[sunday]

8 hours ago, Ol Paint said:

I think(...)

Yes, and all of that is still compatible with the hypothesis of that lady being a DEI appointment.

[Rick]

11 hours ago, Ol Paint said:

I think the officers not being on speaking terms was supposed to be a factor in the USS Fitzgerald collision.  As I recall, the OOD and the officer in charge of the CIC at the time of the collision were supposed to be at odds.  It's alluded to in the summary report, but not explicitly stated, but more directly called out in the follow up investigation by RADM Fort.  The commander of the Fitzgerald was male.  So was the commander of the John S. McCain during her collision.

Regardless, sometimes mistakes happen, and sometimes people who should be competent, aren't.  See USS Cowpens, who suffered through Capt. Holly Graf's tenure before she got relieved in 2010.  But poor leadership doesn't follow chromosomes.  In 2012, Capt. Robert Marin was relieved from command of the Cowpens for an affair with a fellow captain's wife.  Then the ship went through the bizarre episode with Capt. Gregory Gombert, who hid in his cabin for nearly 3 months during deployment.  There's a whole list of bad officers throughout history.  And unlucky ones.

I'm not overly surprised a hydrographic vessel might end up aground--such vessels engaged in mapping should be well-equipped to avoid underwater obstacles, but are also likely to spend more time operating in proximity to underwater hazards, too.

Let's see what the investigation turns up.

Doug

P.S.

Agree.

[Ol Paint]

8 hours ago, sunday said:

Yes, and all of that is still compatible with the hypothesis of that lady being a DEI appointment.

And there's a host of other hypothesis that don't have DEI as the cause.

Doug

[sunday]

43 minutes ago, Ol Paint said:

And there's a host of other hypothesis that don't have DEI as the cause.

Doug

Indeed!

[R011]

Apparently, all women are unqualified DEI hires and every mishap that happens with a woman nearby is her fault.

[Stuart Galbraith]

That there Titanic disaster, that was a woman. It was that daft Winslet Bint, showboating in the bow, and distracting the helmsman.

[sunday]

7 hours ago, R011 said:

Apparently, all women are unqualified DEI hires and every mishap that happens with a woman nearby is her fault.

Nice strawman, dude.

[Stuart Galbraith]

That Empress of Ireland disaster, stands to reason a woman was to blame, seeing it was named after a woman.

That there Helena of Troy etc etc etc.

[sunday]

The female perspective.

 

[Ol Paint]

Now that post strikes me as a farcical method of accident investigation.  Failures should be investigated based on the factual evidence and conclusions derived therefrom.  The existence of a reef, the course, speed, and helm commands of the ship, the winds & currents, and the distance between the hull plating and the rocks don't change based on the male or female interpretation of the evidence.

Now, if you want to talk about more effective ways of crew resource management or training, or speculating why someone acted the way that they did, fine, then we can talk about sex-based perspectives and interactions.

But the basic rule is--don't run into things with your boat.  Avoidable losses of major fleet assets are NOT acceptable.  Just because a bunch of dudes wrecked 7 destroyers at Honda Point in 1923 doesn't mean we have a bunch of gals reenact it in 2024 so they can get a female perspective.  Good grief.

Doug

[sunday]

7 minutes ago, Ol Paint said:

Now that post strikes me as a farcical method of accident investigation.  Failures should be investigated based on the factual evidence and conclusions derived therefrom.  The existence of a reef, the course, speed, and helm commands of the ship, the winds & currents, and the distance between the hull plating and the rocks don't change based on the male or female interpretation of the evidence.

Now, if you want to talk about more effective ways of crew resource management or training, or speculating why someone acted the way that they did, fine, then we can talk about sex-based perspectives and interactions.

But the basic rule is--don't run into things with your boat.  Avoidable losses of major fleet assets are NOT acceptable.  Just because a bunch of dudes wrecked 7 destroyers at Honda Point in 1923 doesn't mean we have a bunch of gals reenact it in 2024 so they can get a female perspective.  Good grief.

Doug

Agree again.

[Captain Hurricane]

It's now been reported that there was a fire in the engine room of the Manawanui prior to her grounding and that although some of her fuel oil burnt off before she capsized residual oil is still leaking from the wreck. Most current efforts are about stopping three leaking pipes in the engine room.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/talanoa/hmnzs-manawanui-sinking-fire-started-in-engine-room-before-doomed-ship-sank/N4YMAJYVSBCVVGR6YL3MGEVOTI/

Being close to a reef on a lee shore in a vessel with no power is not a good place to be, no matter who is in command.

 

 

[sunday]

Seems Ms. Gray had never been a XO in a ship before commanding the now-submarine

 

[Allan W]

On 10/15/2024 at 5:41 PM, sunday said:

Seems Ms. Gray had never been a XO in a ship before commanding the now-submarine

 

Just another armchair admiral with a chip on his shoulder the size of Ben Nevis hiding behind a pseudonym to push his own agenda.  He comes across as a whiny little man who doesn't seem to like women much and can't stand to see them in any kind of leadership role.

If you're going to post videos, please post better quality ones.  The video you posted from What's Going On With Shipping was excellent for example.

[sunday]

Thank you for your opinion.

[Mike1158]

Years ago, ships like this could be raised and refitted.  Raised and scrapped?  Either way, more than a years pocket money to put right.....

[Olof Larsson]

3 hours ago, Mike1158 said:

Years ago, ships like this could be raised and refitted.  Raised and scrapped?  Either way, more than a years pocket money to put right.....

Well, after a engine room fire, and with all the electronics and wiring having being submerged, buying a new (well, or a used) ship ship, is probably cheaper.

[sunday]

7 hours ago, sunday said:

Thank you for your opinion.

Another, longer, and likely better documented opinion on the underlying matter.

Quote

If you want your society to produce transcendent excellence in a given field, the only way to do so is to attach a competitive male status hierarchy to it. With status on the line, men will throw themselves into the arena, immersing themselves completely, devoting their every waking moment to mastering a skill or subject, making it their life’s purpose to push a discipline beyond its limits. Competitive pressures between the best of the best then raises performance to its apogee. Iron sharpens iron.

Conversely, if you want reliable mediocrity, then you want women’s work. Women don’t have the same sexual incentive to compete with one another in performance, and so, by and large, don’t (they compete in other ways). Their instinct is to perform to a perfectly acceptable standard, but not, in general, to push themselves to exceed it.

For men, the play-by-play events of a competitive environment are high drama. Not so for women. Women, as the old saying goes, don’t care about the struggles of the competitors: they just wait at the finish line and fuck the winner. The drama women tend to care about focuses more on the heroine’s struggle to distinguish winners from posers, to decide which winner she wants, and/or to stand out from the other girls so she can catch the eye of the winner. “I’m so torn ... do I go with the musky barbarian warlord werewolf rapist, or the the aloof immortal billionaire vampire knight?” the heroine asks herself for three hundred pages. How he became an immortal billionaire vampire knight in the first place is of much less interest than whether or not he’s really interested in her.

[DB]

Opinion, and at best applies to mass statistics not individuals.

Apparently the ship's "black box" was recovered last week and a "navigation record book" was recovered by HMS Tamar this week.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/hmnzs-manawanui-navigation-record-book-expected-to-become-crucial-inquiry-evidence-found-by-british-warship-searching-debris/6JSJ3NRK4RCWJBF34OOBHNGGCU/

The article does not make it clear what form this record is stored in - it reads to me as if it's a ship equivalent of a Cockpit Voice Recorder given its description.