HMNZS Manawanui reportedly sunk

[Captain Hurricane]

This doesn't look good................the RNZN survey/dive ship Manawanui struck a reef off Samoa yesterday and has now apparently completely sunk...

https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350441671/flames-seen-100m-hmnzs-manawanui-reportedly-sank

Thankfully all on board were able to abandon ship sucessfully and make it ashore safely.

Manawanui was built as a commercial offshore vessel in 2003, bought for the NZDF in 2019.

https://www.nzdf.mil.nz/nzdf/our-equipment/ships-and-watercraft/hmnzs-manawanui/

Sorry, didn't see the other thread that has just been posted....

Edited October 5 by Captain Hurricane

[EchoFiveMike]

Woman captain....

S/F....Ken M

[KV7]

It is pretty embarrassing to hit a reef with a hydrographic survey ship doing a survey.

[Allan W]

9 hours ago, EchoFiveMike said:

Woman captain....

S/F....Ken M

What's that got to do with anything Ken?  We have no idea what happened and you are blaming the captain's gender.  Grow up FFS!

[sunday]

There was that Norwegian frigate that sunk because female bridge officers were not in speaking terms, and they wanted to put the blame on the Spanish builder of the aforementioned frigate, and shortly afterwards that Spanish builder lost the contract for the new Constellation-class USN frigates.

There was also the story of that LCS with the unauthorized Starlink installation

Edited October 6 by sunday

[Allan W]

24 minutes ago, sunday said:

There was that Norwegian frigate that sunk because female bridge officers were not in speaking terms, and they wanted to put the blame on the Spanish builder of the aforementioned frigate, and shortly afterwards that Spanish builder lost the contract for the new Constellation-class USN frigates.

There was also the story of that LCS with the unauthorized Starlink installation

Sunday, none of the reports I've found allege conflicts between female bridge officers as a contributing factor in the loss of HNoMS Helge.  Rather, it was inexperience and negligence on the part of the OOW (a male BTW) that caused the incident.  He was subsequently charged and convicted of negligence.

https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2019/11/12/safety-report-slams-the-norwegian-navy-for-training-safety-shortfalls-in-the-runup-to-frigate-sinking/

https://www.navylookout.com/learning-the-lessons-the-loss-the-norwegian-frigate-helge-ingstad/

https://apnews.com/article/norway-frigate-collision-sinking-tanker-58e263a759e25593693736adb8d51704

Not sure what relevance the unauthorized Starlink installation has to the sinking of the Manawanui.

[EchoFiveMike]

Yeah, you're not supposed to actually notice anything.  

We know the ship is sunk, what more do you need to know?  The captain is responsible for everything that is done, or fails to be done, on the ship.  Period.  Full stop.  S/F....Ken M

Addendum: This isn't an isolated incident:

https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/350339773/warship-gash-cost-220k-fix

https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350432846/commanding-officer-hmnzs-canterbury-work-investigation-under-way

 

Edited October 6 by EchoFiveMike

[sunday]

26 minutes ago, Allan W said:

Sunday, none of the reports I've found allege conflicts between female bridge officers as a contributing factor in the loss of HNoMS Helge.  Rather, it was inexperience and negligence on the part of the OOW (a male BTW) that caused the incident.  He was subsequently charged and convicted of negligence.

https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2019/11/12/safety-report-slams-the-norwegian-navy-for-training-safety-shortfalls-in-the-runup-to-frigate-sinking/

https://www.navylookout.com/learning-the-lessons-the-loss-the-norwegian-frigate-helge-ingstad/

https://apnews.com/article/norway-frigate-collision-sinking-tanker-58e263a759e25593693736adb8d51704

Not sure what relevance the unauthorized Starlink installation has to the sinking of the Manawanui.

Then, there is this: https://www.outono.net/elentir/2018/11/30/el-oculto-papel-de-la-correccion-politica-en-el-accidente-de-la-fragata-noruega-helge-ingstad/

Of course, not an official enquiry.

[Allan W]

14 minutes ago, sunday said:

Then, there is this: https://www.outono.net/elentir/2018/11/30/el-oculto-papel-de-la-correccion-politica-en-el-accidente-de-la-fragata-noruega-helge-ingstad/

Of course, not an official enquiry.

Even that article refers to a male officer ignoring calls from the tanker.

Gender has nothing to do with competence, so why don't we leave that out of the conversation.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Its an ideology with them. They have to see woke everywhere.

[sunday]

I think E5M has more combat experience than both of us. Even in peacetime, sailing mistakes could result in deaths, personal injury and/or equipment damage. That makes sailing quite similar to combat. So I think wise to defer to his judgement.

[EchoFiveMike]

It's a systemic problem.  In a world where we need more accountability, not less, women are universally held less accountable than men, therefore it's a stupid idea putting women in positions of authority.  

It's just math;  there's a lot of (poor)retards who thinks gambling is a good idea too.  S/F....Ken M

[RETAC21]

2 hours ago, sunday said:

I think E5M has more combat experience than both of us. Even in peacetime, sailing mistakes could result in deaths, personal injury and/or equipment damage. That makes sailing quite similar to combat. So I think wise to defer to his judgement.

All of that combat experience is irrelevant to conning a ship close to a reef, so no, it's not similar to combat at all, nor does he know if the gender of the captain had any influence, not does the RNZN until the investigation is done.

if we use your standard, should you be put on ignore since you bring no relevant combat experience to these forums? thought so...

[Captain Hurricane]

The Commanding Officer of Manawanui was lauded by the Minister of Defence and Navy Chief for getting everyone on board safely ashore.

https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/10/06/captains-decision-to-abandon-hmnzs-manawanui-saved-lives-navy-chief/

The events leading up to the ship hitting the reef are still unknown, at least publically. No doubt that will become clearer as the investigation progresses.

Focus at the moment is to mitigate any environmental threats from the wreck and get the crew home (First mission for one of our newly arrived C-130J's! ).

[EchoFiveMike]

I once worked a job where a truck load of fireworks and other unpleasant combustibles burned under a bridge, to the point the bridge had to be taken out of service until comprehensively repaired.  Tens of millions of tax dollars fucked right off.  The State Police district commander lauded the driver for stopping the truck "safely" and avoiding all other drivers on the road.

It occurred at 4AM, the cause of the fire was the son a bitch struck an excavator in a construction zone at least 6ft off the roadway, probably because he feel asleep at the wheel.  Regardless, when I heard this story on the radio on the drive home after a 20hr day of intense fuckery, I had to double check when I got home to make sure there wasn't some other accident being talked about.

The only thing you can generally say about the "official story" is that wasn't what happened.  My combat experience isn't really relevant, my 30+ yrs of dealing with government officials is.  S/F....Ken M

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

4 hours ago, sunday said:

I think E5M has more combat experience than both of us. Even in peacetime, sailing mistakes could result in deaths, personal injury and/or equipment damage. That makes sailing quite similar to combat. So I think wise to defer to his judgement.

Ever heard of Ellen Macarthur?

Come to that, the documentary on HMS Queen Elizabeth had a woman conning it. Hms Daring had a female commander. What did they have in common? That's right, a complete absence of grounding and collisions.

He's talking misogynist crap, and shame on you for endorsing him.

[Yama]

8 hours ago, Allan W said:

Sunday, none of the reports I've found allege conflicts between female bridge officers as a contributing factor in the loss of HNoMS Helge.  Rather, it was inexperience and negligence on the part of the OOW (a male BTW) that caused the incident.  He was subsequently charged and convicted of negligence.

'Female officers drove HNoMS Helge Ingstedt to rocks' myth originates from older article which bragged that four out of five navigation officers on board were woman (not of the entire crew!) which led some people to assume one of them was on the helm during the collision. But that was some time before the accident. As noted, bridge officer that night was male, so was the captain.

[TonyE]

13 minutes ago, Yama said:

'Female officers drove HNoMS Helge Ingstedt to rocks' myth originates from older article which bragged that four out of five navigation officers on board were woman (not of the entire crew!) which led some people to assume one of them was on the helm during the collision. But that was some time before the accident. As noted, bridge officer that night was male, so was the captain.

It is partially true, the bridge officer (watch commander) that night was a female officer from the US Navy, under training and supervised by the male bridge officer (watch commander), who in turn had overall responsibility.

 

From an article published in the Defence Forces Forum in 2023 (google translated into english):

When the frigate KNM Helge Ingstad collided with the tanker Sola TS in Hjeltefjorden on 8 November 2018, there was an American exchange officer on the bridge. She had the role of watch commander in training that night. On Monday, she testified before the Hordaland district court.

The American officer is still working in the US Navy. She had been in Norway for about a year when the accident occurred and she had served at Helge Ingstad since September 2018.

This night the frigate was to practice optical navigation with radar support. This means an increased focus on optical sailing, rather than the use of radar. Optical sailing is simply explained as looking out of the windows on the bridge and using binoculars. The radar is still available.

Was sent down from the bridge

The American officer explained that this with optical navigation was an important part of the learning outcomes of the exchange in Norway, because the US Navy mostly sails in the open sea.

- The Norwegian coast is very unique, so you have to practice this to get good at it. It was primarily a visual exercise with optical focus, and more focus on the visual than radar, she has previously explained in questioning with the police.

It emerged in court that the American officer was sent down into the officer's mess shortly after the collision.

- I think I "blacked out". I was in shock. There were ten thousand things happening at the same time, while time passed extremely slowly, she said.

In questioning, she had explained that she had "become too overwhelmed and was of no help to anyone". She was shaking violently and was taken down from the bridge by someone in charge of sanitation.

- It's not the reaction you hope you'll have in a moment like that, but that's what happened. That is an accurate description of how I reacted.

On Monday, the private on the port side also explained that he thought they had run ashore. He held onto this opinion for several hours after the accident. The starboard lookout also believed for a long time that the Sola TS was land, due to the powerful deck lighting. She understood that it was a vessel "around the same time" as the defendant watch commander.

He has explained that he understood that the lights came from a ship when he received the call where Fedje VTS said that "you must at least do something". This was seconds before the collision.

- Then my window to do something was almost closed. At least to go over to starboard, he explained earlier in the main hearing.

He then attempted an evasive maneuver by going hard to port and then setting the rudders amidships.

Thought the lights on Sola TS were land

As a watch commander in training, you sail in collaboration with and under the observation of the already cleared watch commander. Several witnesses have explained that the American officer occasionally steered the frigate and answered inquiries to the "commander of the watch", before the accident.

In his explanation, the accused watch commander said that as the responsible watch commander, you make a continuous assessment of when the training officer should be allowed to make independent assessments, and when you yourself have to intervene.

- You have to set your limit values and assess how long it can sail during training, and when you have to take over. For example, because during training it does not do things accurately enough or quickly enough.

It was the accused duty manager who answered the calls from Sola TS and Fedje VTS. When the frigate was called up, no one on the bridge understood that the Sola TS was the "object" they had on the starboard side, between them and the shore. The American officer also believed for a long time that the deck lighting of the Sola TS marked land.

- But the moment we collided it became clear that we had collided with something floating, not the coastline. It became immediately apparent when at one point we saw the outline of what looked like a large ship, not land, she explained.

 

[sunday]

More data about the Brit skipper of the Kiwi ship. Seems diversity was involved.

 

[Allan W]

Character assassination from some anonymous internet poster hardly constitute "data" Sunday.  Maybe she was at fault, but how about we wait for the facts before assigning blame.

[sunday]

Let's agree to disagree about the meaning of the term "data".

That article presents the following items of publicly available data:

• CO is a Brit, former RN officer.
• That ship was her first command ever.
• CO is Lesbian.

Difficult to see how that constitutes "character assassination".

Edited October 7 by sunday

[Allan W]

Suggesting that being a woman and a lesbian made her unfit for command is most certainly character assassination. 

[sunday]

I did not see that in the linked article, but as English is not my first language, perhaps you would be so kind to quote the exact text that made you think in that direction.

Perhaps the fact that the ship was the first one she had ever skipped could say more about her fitness to command.

Edited October 7 by sunday

[urbanoid]

21 minutes ago, Allan W said:

Suggesting that being a woman and a lesbian made her unfit for command is most certainly character assassination. 

It suggests that it's quite likely that she was a diversity hire so the navy could show how progressive it is. Maybe the only way to make shitlibs care about (or at least not oppose) the military is allowing them to do their social engineering there, but it's not the proper way to go.

Nothing wrong with competent women in positions of leadership in general, but there shouldn't be any 'quotas' and the standards should be exactly the same as for men.  Neither should there be goals of making armed services (or their branches) 'less male and less white' and we have already seen examples of that too.

[Tim the Tank Nut]

the picture is pretty damning.  Clearly the reef wasn't willing to be excluded.

Let's do this (if everyone is okay with it).

Why not move the gender and performance issue over to the FFZ and keep this thread locked onto the harder news facts? Not saying anyone's opinion needs to be shut down but in the FFZ we can rip and tear more than is appropriate in General Naval and Air.