Israel-Iran-Proxies Conflict

[R011]

16 minutes ago, Yama said:

On the other hand, they judged Israeli occupation and creation of settlements is illegal.

Another issue entirely.  I wonder how they'd rule after Israel pulled out and Palesyinian attacks continued. 

[MiGG0]

21 minutes ago, R011 said:

You  have no idea about how politics affects things like this, do you?

Really?  Are you twelve?

 

 

Ofourse I know. They do also have evidence and that is what matters. You accuse everyone antisemitism if they say bad things against Isreal. So who is 12? 

[urbanoid]

1 minute ago, R011 said:

Another issue entirely.  I wonder how they'd rule after Israel pulled out and Palesyinian attacks continued. 

They'd chant 'from the river to the sea' or something.

[Yama]

4 minutes ago, R011 said:

Another issue entirely.  I wonder how they'd rule after Israel pulled out and Palesyinian attacks continued. 

Well, we can't know that, can we?

[MiGG0]

10 minutes ago, R011 said:

Actual international law, and not the bleatings of the hate-Israel crowd, says:

Non combatants may not be targetted.  Israel doesn't do that.  Instances where individual soldiers are alleged to have done this are investigated and, if warranted, prosecuted.

Indiscriminate fire is forbidden, however there's no requirement to avoid collateral damage.  Israel warns civilians to evacuate before starting an operation and uses PGM where ever possible to limit it.

A belligerent is required to ensure the necessities of life are provided for civilians under their control.  Israel does this.  They also ensure it for civilians under Hamas control which they aren't required to do by the laws of war.

 

There is. Too much of collerate damage happens to be war crime and most war criminal try to use that excuse justify their actions.

Excaggerated example: If what you believe  would be correct then this would be also true: You could kill 1 terrorist with nuke and call 500k civilians killed "collerated damage".

Edited October 30, 2024 by MiGG0

[Yama]

8 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

I don't think you understand this ruling. In it they also effectively legalized ethnic cleansing and conquest through a war of aggression. You can't take one without the other. All these things are harmful. 

When one nation settles 600 000 people on another nations territory, that's 'war of conquest', if any.

Parallel to another conflict going on right now could hardly be any more obvious. No wonder Putin and Netanyahu are reported to be buddies.

[Mighty_Zuk]

Imagine debating casualty ratios and not understanding what targeting procedures and NCVs are.

[R011]

2 minutes ago, MiGG0 said:

If they were proven
 

  Given that there's no genocide, that's going to be hard.  And again, if there's genocide, the court is very much failing in its duty to stop it.

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 Actaul casualties are more than that.

Prove it.

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I know US accused constantly about it. Point is that nobody has made case about it before or even agaisnt Russia

Yes.  It's as if there's one standard for Jews and another for Americans.  And, as noted, there are accusations of genocide and other war crimes against Russia, even if they have not yet got to the ICJ.

[Mighty_Zuk]

Just now, Yama said:

When one nation settles 600 000 people on another nations territory, that's 'war of conquest', if any.

Israel did not conquer J&S through a war of aggresion. Of course you'll twist the words, that's your MO. The real issue is conquest through aggression. Not once in Israel's history did it initiate a war of aggression. It was always self defense. In self defense, conquest is most certainly the moral choice. 

Israel also never settled these lands. Fact is, these lands were always populated. And many of those who returned shortly after 1967, are those whom Jordan ethnically cleansed in 1949.

Just now, Yama said:

Parallel to another conflict going on right now could hardly be any more obvious. No wonder Putin and Netanyahu are reported to be buddies.

You already said you don't know shit about history, you don't have to demonstrate it further, please.

 

[R011]

3 minutes ago, MiGG0 said:

There is. Too much of collerate damage happens to be war crime and most war criminal try to use that excuse justify their actions.

Excaggerated example: If what you beleive correct then thsi would be true: Yuo could kill 1 terrorist with nuke and call 500k civilians kille "collerated damage"

Show me the treaty and wording that defines "Too much".

Incidentally, you do realize using human shields is a war crime.  Shooting through human shields is not.

[Mighty_Zuk]

2 minutes ago, R011 said:

Show me the treaty and wording that defines "Too much".

Incidentally, you do realize using human shields is a war crime.  Shooting through human shields is not.

Exactly. 

Even an NCV that's 0 about 99% of the time, will still usually fail to achieve a 1:1 ratio of combatants:civilians. 

[MiGG0]

1 minute ago, R011 said:

  Given that there's no genocide, that's going to be hard.  And again, if there's genocide, the court is very much failing in its duty to stop it.

You dont seem to understan they already ruled to stop possible genoside:

"ICJ Issued an order to Israel requiring it to take all measures in its power to prevent acts of genocide, to prevent and punish incitement to genocide, and to allow basic humanitarian services into Gaza" 

Ofcourse they have no power to force it anyway.

 

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Prove it.

Well, thats is the point becasue healt care system is basically collapsed they dont even have good records anymore to look all names, etc.

 

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Yes.  It's as if there's one standard for Jews and another for Americans.  And, as noted, there are accusations of genocide and other war crimes against Russia, even if they have not yet got to the ICJ.

No, it is same standard for everyhone. Jews are no special in here. Any country can prosecute USA or RUS for their crimes, if they have enought of evidence. 

[MiGG0]

6 minutes ago, R011 said:

Show me the treaty and wording that defines "Too much".

Incidentally, you do realize using human shields is a war crime.  Shooting through human shields is not.

Too much becomes crime committed with the intent to destroy a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, in whole or in part. In short it becomes genoside. 

If you drop bombs you cannot say intent was not to kill.

[R011]

1 minute ago, MiGG0 said:

You dont seem to understan they already ruled to stop possible genoside:

 

"possible genocide".  There isn't any actually happening.  They told Israel not to do something they have no intention of doing anyway.  It's going to be easy to comply.

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Well, thats is the point becasue healt care system is basically collapsed they dont even have good records anymore to look all names, etc.

So you have no evidence.  Thought so.

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No, it is same standard for everyhone. Jews are no special in here. Any country can prosecute USA or RUS for their crimes, if they have enought of evidence. 

And yet they aren't.

[R011]

2 minutes ago, MiGG0 said:

Too much becomes crime committed with the intent to destroy a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, in whole or in part. In short it becomes genoside. 

And as they aren't doing that, then it isn't.  There's no intent to destroy the Gazans nor are they doing so.

You still haven't given us a legal definition of "too much", BTW.

[MiGG0]

5 minutes ago, R011 said:

"possible genocide".  There isn't any actually happening.  They told Israel not to do something they have no intention of doing anyway.  It's going to be easy to comply.

So you have no evidence.  Thought so.

And yet they aren't.

Well there is according multiple nations and thats why theru is case ongoing in ICJ. Was it genocide will be determined later in that court.

I dindt say I have evidence. But there are names of +40k killed and there certainly are killed ones that have not been found identified yet.

 

[sunday]

6 minutes ago, R011 said:

And as they aren't doing that, then it isn't.  There's no intent to destroy the Gazans nor are they doing so.

(...)

https://apnews.com/article/hamas-israel-generals-plan-eiland-gaza-219d7eb9a3050e281ccc032d5a56263c

https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/10/1156171

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240923-israel-considers-plan-to-empty-northern-gaza-of-palestinians/

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/10/jordan-foreign-minister-says-israel-aiming-to-empty-gaza-of-its-people

https://www.unocha.org/publications/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/acting-un-relief-chief-disregard-humanity-must-stop-north-gaza

https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/world-must-stop-ethnic-cleansing-northern-gaza-enarhe

Seems some intent to me.

[MiGG0]

11 minutes ago, R011 said:

And as they aren't doing that, then it isn't.  There's no intent to destroy the Gazans nor are they doing so.

You still haven't given us a legal definition of "too much", BTW.

Well they are bombin their homes. And if you bomb their homes intent to kill is clear. That civilians are not target is irrelevant. It is enought that you know your actions cause civilian deaths. IE causing famine by food embargo is genoside even if you directly didnt kill anyone but your actions did.

I already replied to this much earlier. What is too much is ultimately ICJ to deside.

Edited October 30, 2024 by MiGG0

[R011]

3 minutes ago, MiGG0 said:

I dindt say I have evidence. 

 

And that says it all.

[Mighty_Zuk]

I'm going to conclude this debate right here.

Here's the definition of genocide:

(yes I know it was posted here but some people have reading comprehension issues)

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acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group

Let's dissect it:

a national, ethnical, racial or religious group - Gazans are none of that. The nationality there is primarily Palestinian. The ethnicity/race are primarily Arabic. And the religion there is Islam. 

All of these groups exist in many parts of the world including in Israel, where they live as citizens and thus enjoy the same rights as everyone else, and highest standard of living in the middle east.

 

So you can call it whatever you want, but genocide is a word that already has a meaning, and none can hijack it to mean something else.

[Yama]

11 minutes ago, R011 said:

"possible genocide".  There isn't any actually happening.  They told Israel not to do something they have no intention of doing anyway.  It's going to be easy to comply.

Why do you bother to argue for Israeli favourable interpretation of ICJ case, when Israeli representation in this thread already told that the whole institution means nothing to them?

[sunday]

Aaand...

https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-778367

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Israel should make Gaza look like Auschwitz museum - council head

David Azoulai, head of the Metula Council, proposed sending all Gazans to refugee camps in Lebanon and flattening the whole Strip so it becomes an empty museum like Auschwitz.

Israel should be sending Palestinian Gazans fleeing the fighting to refugee camps in Lebanon, with the entire Gaza Strip being emptied and leveled and turned into a museum like the Auschwitz concentration camp in Poland, Metula Council head David Azoulai told 103FM.

"After October 7, instead of urging people to go south, we should direct them to the beaches. The Navy can transport them to the shores of Lebanon, where there are already sufficient refugee camps. Then, a security strip should be established from the sea to the Gaza border fence, completely empty, as a reminder of what was once there. It should resemble the Auschwitz concentration camp," he said in an interview with Ben Caspit and Yinon Magal.

"Tell everyone in Gaza to go to the beaches. Navy ships should load the terrorists onto the shores of Lebanon. The entire Gaza Strip should be emptied and leveled flat, just like in Auschwitz. Let it become a museum, showcasing the capabilities of the State of Israel and dissuading anyone from living in the Gaza Strip. This is what must be done To give them a visual representation.

October 7 massacre was a "second Holocaust"
"What occurred on October 7 was a second Holocaust. Lebanon already has refugee camps, and that's where they should go," Azoulai said. "We should leave Gaza desolate and destroyed to serve as a museum, demonstrating the madness of the people who lived there."

Later, he clarified his stance about the situation up North: "Hezbollah is observing the situation in the South, and if we don't address it properly, they will see it as a weakness. No matter how strong terrorism may be, we cannot live in fear or uproot people from their homes. We must act decisively."

Azoulai finished the interview by saying, "The displaced residents of the North deserve to know when and how they will return home. We don't want war or casualties. However, I don't believe Hezbollah will surrender peacefully."

Interesting comments to that piece of news:

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OrangeBox
17 December, 2023

No. First off it is wrong to ever make such comparison to Auschwitz. Two it is immoral to expel an entire population. None of these politicians are serious on solving the conflict but fueling it and seem not realize things like international law and most countries including US would never support something of an expulsion. 

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zionist_forever
19 December, 2023

if we do that we will loose overnight all international support for the war including American and if we loose US support they could well decide no more weapon deliveries then we will be physically unable to continue the war because our domestic arms industry is not big enough to provide all the munitions the IDF needs and they do not make as many different types of weapons as the Americans do.

We also need to remember the war is with Hamas not the ordinary Palestinians and there is no reason for us to act like Nazis, if we do act that way it will turn every Palestinian into a Hamas supporter then this war will have totally backfired.

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Gerardo S
17 December, 2023

not only immoral and contrary to our beliefs and our values, but also illegal and forbidden under the rules of engagement of IDF, and ultimately, profoundly dumb. Religious zionism? Not religious and definitely not Zionist!! Under your army dodging and jobnik friends in government, Oct 7th happened. You don't know how to defend Israel. 

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Jamie9260
18 December, 2023

its comments like these from public officials, that are very hard to come back from and chases away support From the US and others,

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David
17 December, 2023

The comparison to Auschwitz is wrong and harmful, the concept of leaving Gaza empty makes no sense (if the Arab population is gone the area is valuable with a good port and should be settled) and, while I have no issue with the population of Gaza being relocated, it is something that would need to be done and not discussed (rather than discussed and not done).

 

Edited October 30, 2024 by sunday

[Mighty_Zuk]

2 minutes ago, sunday said:

https://apnews.com/article/hamas-israel-generals-plan-eiland-gaza-219d7eb9a3050e281ccc032d5a56263c

This article actually refutes your claim. Did you bother to read it?

2 minutes ago, sunday said:

https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/10/1156171

The link leads to a UN site, which refutes your claim. 

2 minutes ago, sunday said:

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240923-israel-considers-plan-to-empty-northern-gaza-of-palestinians/

Link leads to MEMO. This is not a source of information. To the contrary. Also yet again refutes your claim.

2 minutes ago, sunday said:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/10/jordan-foreign-minister-says-israel-aiming-to-empty-gaza-of-its-people

Same case, but this time it's literally the Hamas spokesperson. Sunday aren't you supposed to be ultra Christian? What are you doing drooling over radical islamist propaganda?

2 minutes ago, sunday said:

https://www.unocha.org/publications/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/acting-un-relief-chief-disregard-humanity-must-stop-north-gaza

UNOCHA is a UN agency, genius.

2 minutes ago, sunday said:

https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/world-must-stop-ethnic-cleansing-northern-gaza-enarhe

Did you bother reading it? It also refutes your claim. 

[Mighty_Zuk]

3 minutes ago, Yama said:

Why do you bother to argue for Israeli favourable interpretation of ICJ case, when Israeli representation in this thread already told that the whole institution means nothing to them?

People have morals, you know. Not something I'd expect you to understand.

[MiGG0]

4 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

I'm going to conclude this debate right here.

Here's the definition of genocide:

(yes I know it was posted here but some people have reading comprehension issues)

Let's dissect it:

a national, ethnical, racial or religious group - Gazans are none of that. The nationality there is primarily Palestinian. The ethnicity/race are primarily Arabic. And the religion there is Islam. 

All of these groups exist in many parts of the world including in Israel, where they live as citizens and thus enjoy the same rights as everyone else, and highest standard of living in the middle east.

 

So you can call it whatever you want, but genocide is a word that already has a meaning, and none can hijack it to mean something else.

 

I think you have reading comprehension issues:

intent to destroy a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, in whole or in part