Roman Alymov Posted January 21 Posted January 21 2 hours ago, Ssnake said: Saying otherwise is illegal in Russia now, so don't expect a different answer. With all my respect, direct and deliberate lie to other Forum Member is not making you any favor. Not only it is not "illegal in Russia", but "Ukrainian" is official language in at least two regions of Russia According to official 2021 census data in Russia, there are 190 007 people who self-identified as "Ukrainians" (0.67% of population). 20 years ago, in 2002 when Soviet heritage was still fresh, it was 1 532 798 people - so over this time about 1 300 000 changed their self-identification. Note it is just self-identification filled into the census form - for example, we have ~12 000 elphs in Russia by the same data.
urbanoid Posted January 21 Posted January 21 5 minutes ago, Roman Alymov said: Note it is just self-identification filled into the census form - for example, we have ~12 000 elphs in Russia by the same data. How many orcs though?
bojan Posted January 21 Posted January 21 32 minutes ago, urbanoid said: Have they thought about... actually asking them first? Lol, what are you proposing, people having right to identify as anything they want to?
Roman Alymov Posted January 21 Posted January 21 3 hours ago, LeeWalls said: I'm sorry I'm coming to this late Mr. A, but is there considered to be any "ethnic" difference between a "Ukrainian' and a "Russian"? I mean does it really just come down to where you happen to reside (for long enough)? If you put a Uke and a Russian in a room with no indicia of identity, could you tell which was which? I am pretty sure the answer is "no" but am not certain. Let's first set the definition of who is "Russian". Russian Federation is multhiethnic country of numerous ethnic groups from Germans to Koreans, Slavic population (aka "ethnic Russians") is about 80%, plus some ethnic groups are impossible to tell apart by any outside methrics except names - for example good luck telling Russian German from "Russian", or at least some Tatars from Russian. For foreigners, all of them are just "Russians" Igor Bezler, one of Russian Spring heroes, ethnic German Eduard Ullman, GRU Capitan, hero of Chechen War, ethnic German Alina Kabaeva ( Alina Kabaeva - Wikipedia ), ethnic Volga Tatar Svetlana Khorkina ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svetlana_Khorkina ) - ethnic Mordva (Finno-Ugric ethnic group, Moksha subgroup) Elena Isinbayeva (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yelena_Isinbayeva), born to a Tabasaran father and a Russian mother Moreover, until relatively recently in historic terms, even among "core Russians" of Central Russia regional differences in pronounciation and dress were visible - for example, below is illustration of female folk dress of "core Russia" regions, niot all of them of course Summarising above said, "Russians" that are now population of Russia, especially urban population (75% of total population) is more or less homogenious mix, but relatively recent, created by industrialisation and urbanisation of XX century and "polished" by general education system and, more importat, media (radio and then TV). Still, when it comes to finding reference point to compare with "Ukrainians", it is not so simple - of course Avar (Avars (Caucasus) - Wikipedia) of Yakut ( Yakuts - Wikipedia ) will be massively different not only from "Ukrainian" but from each other.
Roman Alymov Posted January 21 Posted January 21 53 minutes ago, urbanoid said: How many orcs though? According to census data, ~1000 in Moscow and Moscow region, so probably 5-7K in entire Russia (as Tolkien-fans movement is less popular in other regions). I am too lazy to dig up exact number, sorry.
urbanoid Posted January 21 Posted January 21 Just now, Roman Alymov said: According to census data, ~1000 in Moscow and Moscow region, so probably 5-7K in entire Russia (as Tolkien-fans movement is less popular in other regions). I am too lazy to dig up exact number, sorry. Fair enough.
Roman Alymov Posted January 21 Posted January 21 1 hour ago, bojan said: *Those in northern Serbia have fantastic food festivals, and I regularly visit those. One thing that has been noted since 2014. is very aggressive Ukrainian embassy campaign about them being Ukrainians and not distinct nationality and their pushback against that narrative. Reminds you of something? That is not local thing by one Ukrainian embassy but sort of global campaign to "reclaim stolen Ukrainian property", from Borsch to Duke Vladimir of Kiev. Nothing new actually as it is the distant echo of Soviet-time "Ukrainisation" campaigns.
LeeWalls Posted January 21 Posted January 21 44 minutes ago, Roman Alymov said: Let's first set the definition of who is "Russian". Russian Federation is multhiethnic country of numerous ethnic groups from Germans to Koreans, Slavic population (aka "ethnic Russians") is about 80%, plus some ethnic groups are impossible to tell apart by any outside methrics except names - for example good luck telling Russian German from "Russian", or at least some Tatars from Russian. For foreigners, all of them are just "Russians" Igor Bezler, one of Russian Spring heroes, ethnic German Eduard Ullman, GRU Capitan, hero of Chechen War, ethnic German Alina Kabaeva ( Alina Kabaeva - Wikipedia ), ethnic Volga Tatar Svetlana Khorkina ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svetlana_Khorkina ) - ethnic Mordva (Finno-Ugric ethnic group, Moksha subgroup) Elena Isinbayeva (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yelena_Isinbayeva), born to a Tabasaran father and a Russian mother Moreover, until relatively recently in historic terms, even among "core Russians" of Central Russia regional differences in pronounciation and dress were visible - for example, below is illustration of female folk dress of "core Russia" regions, niot all of them of course Summarising above said, "Russians" that are now population of Russia, especially urban population (75% of total population) is more or less homogenious mix, but relatively recent, created by industrialisation and urbanisation of XX century and "polished" by general education system and, more importat, media (radio and then TV). Still, when it comes to finding reference point to compare with "Ukrainians", it is not so simple - of course Avar (Avars (Caucasus) - Wikipedia) of Yakut ( Yakuts - Wikipedia ) will be massively different not only from "Ukrainian" but from each other. This all makes sense. "Russian" really isn't really a proper ethnic designation as opposed to a nationality, then.
Roman Alymov Posted January 21 Posted January 21 4 hours ago, LeeWalls said: I'm sorry I'm coming to this late Mr. A, but is there considered to be any "ethnic" difference between a "Ukrainian' and a "Russian"? Now, after more of less fixing reference point (or problem of finding one) for "Russian", let's address "Ukrainian". First of all, "Ukraine" of 1991 was patchwork created from former parts of different countrues: Russia, Poland ( both "Polish kingdom" during Russian Empire time and mid-war Polish Republic), Romania, Chekhoslovakia (Austro-Hungary). More over, even central "core Ukraine" was not homogenious So, as much as post-Soviet Russian Federation, post-Soviet Ukraine is the product of XX century urbanisation and industrialisation (with regional differences created by Soviet-time efforts of "Ukrainisation", side effect of "Lenin's ethnic policy"). In theory, "literature Ukrainian" was created from Poltava region dialect, but my late Father-in-Law, local of Poltava region, during his conscript service in Western Ukraine in ~1968 was initially not able to communicate with locals (later he learned local dialect and even married local girl). Below is nice video of pro-Ukr "Diesel Show" (competitors of standup commedian Zelensky's "Kvartal 95") - "Problems of Ukrainian language in modern society". Note at ~13:00 person is calling, speaking nice Ukrainian. TV host asks "What region of Ukraine are you calling from?" - "From Canada" v
Roman Alymov Posted January 21 Posted January 21 5 hours ago, LeeWalls said: I mean does it really just come down to where you happen to reside (for long enough)? It is more about "Where you family was caught with 1991 events", as it was the point of time when administrative borders became state borders.
Roman Alymov Posted January 21 Posted January 21 5 hours ago, LeeWalls said: If you put a Uke and a Russian in a room with no indicia of identity, could you tell which was which? I think the best ansver id given by CIA in recent ABC News article How the CIA and Ukrainian intelligence secretly forged a deep partnership - ABC News "The CIA and Ukraine also established a training program, called "Operation Goldfish". The name derived, Kondratyuk said, from a post-Soviet joke about an untrustworthy Russian-speaking fish. The program trained Ukrainians to pose as Russians, not only in Russia but in third countries around the world in joint operations with the CIA. The Ukrainians were able to pass as Russians, creating remarkable opportunities for access and recruitment, former Ukrainian and U.S. officials said." Note CIA preferred "Ukrainians" to numerous ethnic Russians they have access to (many of whom are long-time US citizens). It means it was easier for them to use "Ukrainians" to pass as Russians (as they live in Russian-speaking envirionment in everyday life), not actual Russians-US-citizens who live in English-speaking envirionment. P.S. No idea which of numerous jikes about Goldfish (Russian analogue of "Gin from the lamp") is ment here, may be this one A Ukrainian and a Russian are sitting on the bank of the river and fishing. They caught a goldfish. The fish tells them that he will fulfill three wishes, only two for the Ukrainian, and only one for the Russian. The Ukrainian says: - I want not a single Muscovite in the territory of our Ukraine! Goldfish: Done. Ukrainian : I want the wall to be 5 km high around Ukraine, so that not a single Muscovite climbs back and all Ukrainians return to their homeland! Goldfish: "Done!" The Ukrainian disappeared. Russian: - Is it true that there is a wall around Ukraine? Fish: - Yes! Russian: - And not a single Russian inside? Small fish: - Not a single one, trust me - I'm a Goldfish! Russian: And all the Ukrainians are inside there? Fish: - Yes! Russian: Fine. Now fill all this with concrete... Золотая рыбка | Пикабу
urbanoid Posted January 21 Posted January 21 (edited) 55 minutes ago, Roman Alymov said: A Ukrainian and a Russian are sitting on the bank of the river and fishing. They caught a goldfish. The fish tells them that he will fulfill three wishes, only two for the Ukrainian, and only one for the Russian. The Ukrainian says: - I want not a single Muscovite in the territory of our Ukraine! Goldfish: Done. Ukrainian : I want the wall to be 5 km high around Ukraine, so that not a single Muscovite climbs back and all Ukrainians return to their homeland! Goldfish: "Done!" The Ukrainian disappeared. Russian: - Is it true that there is a wall around Ukraine? Fish: - Yes! Russian: - And not a single Russian inside? Small fish: - Not a single one, trust me - I'm a Goldfish! Russian: And all the Ukrainians are inside there? Fish: - Yes! Russian: Fine. Now fill all this with concrete... Золотая рыбка | Пикабу We have the same joke but with Warsaw instead of Ukraine and a non-Warsaw dweller instead of a Russian. Edited January 21 by urbanoid
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