Am I the only one who is disconcerted by lack of women conscription in the UKR Army?

[On the way]

On the one hand, we have Zelensky hollering blue murder because apparently the West is not supporting him enough in the fight against the Russians. On the other hand, it does not appear the UKR economy is anywhere near a war footing and an with all out military mentality to wage total war.  FFS, the UKR conscription age was only 27 before being lowered to 25 a few months ago. Why wasn't it at 18, like many other conscriptions in the past? When I served in the Singapore Army, the conscription age was 18, and we weren't in any situation remotely resembling extinction by a bigger neighbour. 

And why are women not conscripted at all? Could they not work in the support and medical field in the UKR Army? Could the UKR not use the Israel model for women conscriptions? Why can't women be drone operators? Or mechanics? Or train vehicle and tank drivers? They can free up a lot of men to go to the front. Easily creating a dozen brigades. Women want equality, well, they should pick up a rifle and fight too. 

Why have has the Ukrainian govt not done something about the 6.3 million Ukrainian citizens living overseas after fleeing the fighting. Can they not recall all the able bodied men and women from this 6.3 million? Seems to be blatantly unfair to have the majority of UKR stuck in Ukraine fighting the war, and this group living overseas are not doing anything. Cancel their passports, don't renew their passports. Once their passports are canceled, any visa they have in that country of refuge would also be canceled. They either return to Ukraine or face deportation. In either case, that is additional manpower to the UKR Army. 

 

[urbanoid]

Yes, probably you're the only one. Or one of the few at least.

It doesn't make sense to greatly expand conscription if you don't have enough equipment for the already conscripted. Under 25 (previously under 27) conscription for males makes quite a lot of sense, given that Ukraine had the worst demographic record in Europe in the last 30+ years. They decided that younger men are more likely to reproduce in the future, the older ones either already did so or the perspective of them doing it in the future was deemed to be less likely. For obvious reasons, women are kinda necessary for that too, so sending them to the meatgrinder sort of defeats the point.

Below you have 4.3 million people, of which only 22% are adult men, minus the ones 25 and under, minus those too old, minus fathers of 3 or more children (they are exempt and even allowed to leave the country) etc. Are some of them conscriptable? Yes, and if the need arises the problem may be addressed.

Quote

On 31 May 2024, Ukrainian citizens represented over 98% of the beneficiaries of temporary protection. Adult women made up almost half (45.6%) of temporary protection beneficiaries in the EU. Children accounted for almost one-third (32.5%), while adult men comprised slightly more than a fifth (21.9%) of the total.

Additionally there are several millions of the internally displaced within Ukraine. Ukrainian state is currently surviving largely on Western assistance, the fact that those few millions are not currently in Ukraine is beneficial to Kyiv - not only they don't have to assist them financially, they may even be sending some of the cash earned in the West (Ukrainian refugees generally work) to the families that remained. There wouldn't be enough jobs for all those people if they remained in Ukraine.

[sunday]

Also, they could use the Russians to help create an Ukrainian new man, by killing the old ones that could still remember a Ukraine that was part of Russia. Not much different from the Leninist idea of transforming society by the extermination of class enemies.

[mandeb48]

No one knows for sure how many people live in Ukraine, I would guess 30 million. About 25% are men of military age. That means there is no shortage of meat for the slaughterhouse.

As for refugees in Europe, little by little obstacles are being put in place to prevent them from staying, but it would not be media-correct to drag them away by force when there are still millions of Ukrainians in Ukraine where they can be dragged to the front with little press.

We are in the third year of war and there seems to be no end in sight, it is inevitable that war-weariness will make forced recruitment increasingly unpopular.

[Stefan Kotsch]

2 hours ago, sunday said:

Also, they could use the Russians to help create an Ukrainian new man, by killing the old ones that could still remember a Ukraine that was part of Russia.

From Solovyov or Simonyan? That's pretty sick worded. 

[Stuart Galbraith]

If they can remember Ukraine being part of Russia, they must be getting on for 117 years old.

[Mike1158]

Or called Boris the animal........

[R011]

3 hours ago, Mike1158 said:

Or called Boris the animal........

It's just Boris!

[Mike1158]

16 minutes ago, R011 said:

It's just Boris!

Only to my family.........

[urbanoid]

Damn, I only know Boris the Blade.

 

[crazyinsane105]

To be fair, Ukrainian culture is still a bit more old fashioned, where both men and women have solid gender roles. Many women tend to get married much younger than their Western counterparts, as they want kids and family. They are less likely to find enthusiasm doing things that men tend to do…be it house repair, construction work, etc. Hell, a lot of women tend to not want to drive and want their men to do it.

Zielinski passing a law to conscript women simply won’t go all too well. On top of the cultural considerations, women are having to do some jobs left behind by men, or many are the only ones looking after the kids. Having to conscript them won’t be the best of ideas 

[alejandro_]

On 9/18/2024 at 6:35 AM, On the way said:

Why have has the Ukrainian govt not done something about the 6.3 million Ukrainian citizens living overseas after fleeing the fighting. Can they not recall all the able bodied men and women from this 6.3 million? Seems to be blatantly unfair to have the majority of UKR stuck in Ukraine fighting the war, and this group living overseas are not doing anything. Cancel their passports, don't renew their passports. Once their passports are canceled, any visa they have in that country of refuge would also be canceled. They either return to Ukraine or face deportation. In either case, that is additional manpower to the UKR Army. 

Conscription is not exactly popular, latest data estimates the number of deserters in at least 80,000. Recalling someone from abroad would end up in a court case, and some countries have already stated that they won't collaborate in deporting Ukrainian citizens in order to serve. Quite a few refugees are in Belarus and Russia...

In terms of demographics, Ukraine is a drama, not only because of the low fertility before the war; it has lost a chunk of it's population (regions occupied by Russia), and millions have left. According to latest data in the first 6 months of 2024 86,665 children were born in Ukraine controlled territory. To put some context, in Greece (10.5 million people) 77,000 babies were born in all of 2022. 

[EchoFiveMike]

Adding women to your military units generally makes them less effective.  S/F...Ken M

[seahawk]

It is very positive, as it will make it easier to install Russian dominance after the end of the war. With the breeding age males reduced, Russian males have a chance to install Russian dominance.

[glenn239]

3 hours ago, EchoFiveMike said:

Adding women to your military units generally makes them less effective.  S/F...Ken M

And that's in an all-volunteer force during peacetime.  Imagine the effect when it's women being drafted against their will into combat conditions, (the line between rear area and front line that the OP proposes being blurred in Ukraine), with men in large numbers that are also being drafted to the front, also against their will. 

[Stuart Galbraith]

3 hours ago, EchoFiveMike said:

Adding women to your military units generally makes them less effective.  S/F...Ken M

Tell that to SOE.

[Stuart Galbraith]

8 minutes ago, glenn239 said:

And that's in an all-volunteer force during peacetime.  Imagine the effect when it's women being drafted against their will into combat conditions, (the line between rear area and front line that the OP proposes being blurred in Ukraine), with men in large numbers that are also being drafted to the front, also against their will. 

Just like the Great Patriotic war then, in other words.

This is nothing Ukraine or Russia hasnt seen before.

[crazyinsane105]

6 hours ago, EchoFiveMike said:

Adding women to your military units generally makes them less effective.  S/F...Ken M

This is true, if we are talking about combat units or even rear units. If they are on a base just doing office work that’s another story. But Ukraine is in need of soldiers, not office employees

[Stuart Galbraith]

Except, as is increasingly the case on tanknet, its not true.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia_Litvyak

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariya_Oktyabrskaya

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nancy_Wake

https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/43/a3924443.shtml

In fact, you know what, count all the ones on the SOE memorial, for they were all exceptional one way or another.

http://s0.geograph.org.uk/geophotos/03/76/90/3769098_fc1123f2.jpg

 

[On the way]

7 hours ago, crazyinsane105 said:

This is true, if we are talking about combat units or even rear units. If they are on a base just doing office work that’s another story. But Ukraine is in need of soldiers, not office employees

Drafting women to replace men in the support roles frees up men for frontline service

[futon]

Without more equipment, more women won't matter.

They need an armored division with full complrment of breech vehicles like mine clearing tanks. And air cover that entails anti-drone stuff, patriot missiles, and things that can push with a ground force. And artillery. And more long range precision. 

[On the way]

On 9/19/2024 at 5:36 AM, glenn239 said:

And that's in an all-volunteer force during peacetime.  Imagine the effect when it's women being drafted against their will into combat conditions, (the line between rear area and front line that the OP proposes being blurred in Ukraine), with men in large numbers that are also being drafted to the front, also against their will. 

What is the alternative? If you don't want to get drafted against your will, and you lose the war because of a less then maximum effort from all citizens, then they are going to end up being comfort women for Russian soldiers. 

[Roman Alymov]

7 hours ago, On the way said:

What is the alternative? If you don't want to get drafted against your will, and you lose the war because of a less then maximum effort from all citizens, then they are going to end up being comfort women for Russian soldiers. 

Probably you base that on best Western practices of converting refugees from Ukraine into sex workers?

By the way, i hope you understand that for Ukrainian men who are hiding in their houses to avoid forced modilization (4-6 millions of men, according to Arestovich if i remember correctly), it is only possible to do it with support of women (mothers, wifes or girlfriends)?  So for every man in hiding there is at least one woman bringing him food etc. It will give you some idea how willing are the people left on Kiev-controlled territory to serve as NATO cannon fodder.

[Mike1158]

Nobody has ever, of course, evaded service in the Russian armed forces.  No doubt they are protected by women too?

[glenn239]

11 hours ago, On the way said:

What is the alternative? If you don't want to get drafted against your will, and you lose the war because of a less then maximum effort from all citizens, then they are going to end up being comfort women for Russian soldiers. 

The alternative is to not mobilize women, given the conclusion that doing so is not likely to be the difference between victory and defeat for Ukraine.