What happened to all the Allied equipment the Germans captured after the Battle of France?

[On the way]

I mean we are talking millions of small arms, hundreds maybe thousands of pieces of artillery and tanks, tons of ammo, etc. Did they ship it back to Germany and melt it down? Did they equip entire divisions with captured rifles and small arms? Seems to me they could have found a use for the small arms at least. I mean the British Expeditionary Force stuff alone should be enough to equip all German Forces policing France. They could have used it to defend the Atlantic War. 

[rmgill]

Repairable items were returned to use. Many of the vehicles were used. 

French S35 and S40 tanks were used for anti-partisan work. 
French armored cars were fitted with rail wheels and used in conjunction with their armored trains for anti-partisan work. 





Hotchkiss and Lorraine hulls were used for SPG hulls. 
Like the Geschutzpanzer 39H(f) 7.5cm PaK 40 Hotchkiss (Marder I) and the Hotchkiss 105mm le.FH 18 (Sf.) auf Geschutzwagen 39H(f). 

Daimler Armored Cars and Scout cars were repainted and used as is. 

This bit them in the arse when Lieutenant D.B. Powle, of the 2nd Household Cavalry Regiment slipped in behind a German armored car and followed into German rear area then further alone 10km behind the lines and captured the bridge over the Souleuvre. This re-aligned operation Bluecoat to take advantage of the coup. 
https://d-dayinfo.org/en/operation-overlord/operation-bluecoat/

 

[rmgill]

Trucks were repaired, repainted and pressed into service. 

French AHN2 



Citroens and Renaults were used as well as many British Trucks. They were very short of mechanical transport. 

[RichTO90]

As of 1 March 1944, OB West utilized 3,486 captured field artillery pieces, mostly French and Soviet, but also considerable Belgian and Dutch pieces. The Luftwaffe in France used dozens of ex-British 3.7" AA guns. Hundreds of ex-French tanks and other armored vehicles were used, as were tens of thousands of trucks. Most of the occupation troops - not the frontline Heer units as much, but the dozens of Landdescheutzen battalions were mostly equipped with French small arms.

[Markus Becker]

46 minutes ago, RichTO90 said:

Most of the occupation troops - not the frontline Heer units as much, but the dozens of Landdescheutzen battalions were mostly equipped with French small arms.

Shouldn't that be Landsturm and maybe Landwehr? AFAIK Landesschützen was an Austrian term. 

Anyway using captured small arms of country X for the occupation forces oder that country seems to have been the default policy. Probably because local industry could still supply enough to keep them in working order. 

As for the scope of Beutewaffen use overall. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_designations_of_foreign_artillery_in_World_War_II

[RichTO90]

34 minutes ago, Markus Becker said:

Shouldn't that be Landsturm and maybe Landwehr? AFAIK Landesschützen was an Austrian term.

Nope. At the beginning of the war, Landwehr were age 35-45, Landsturm were older than 45. However, many of those who were able-bodied, were mobilized, but in regular Heer divisions. The prewar concept of 21 Landwehr divisions as occupation, security, and LOC units was never implemented (only one, 14. Landwehr was partly mobilized then redesignated as 205. Infanterie-Division in December 1939). Instead, they were activated as Landesschützen-Bataillonen - 303 were established on the outbreak of war, drawing on Landwehr and Lansturm personnel. On 1 April 1940, 187 battalions were mobilized as occupation troops outside the borders of the Reich and they eventually became the backbone of the military government in occupied territories. In spring 1942, the Landesschützen-Bataillone assigned to the Ostheer were redesignated as Sicherungs-Bataillonen, followed by 58 of those of the Westheer in early 1944, which formed 15 Sicherungs-Regimenter. 

[Stuart Galbraith]

I was reading a recent book on Henri Lafont, who was Gangster No1 in Paris during the occupation, and in 1944, he was tasked with setting up combat units to tackle the Maquis. He recruited a number of Algerians (along with some of his own Hoods), formed them into a combat Unit, and they became an police unit for the Waffen SS in France. They werent much good, they didnt have much training, and they were probably best at tying the Maquis if anything. The reason I mention all this, I seem to recall (I would have to double check), they were equipped with weaponry out of SOE arms caches that had been captured. Mainly Stens IIRC. Which latterly even the German armed forces were later producing when they had were suddenly faced by the collapses on East and Wst.

There was two sections of that atlantic wall that seemed to use British Vickers AA guns as anti maritime weapons. Which illustrates perhaps how many guns they got, and how hard up they were for anti ship weapons. They were at one point, emplacing 88's they had removed from Uboats to cover the wall as well.

Edited September 7 by Stuart Galbraith

[bojan]

5 hours ago, RichTO90 said:

...Most of the occupation troops - not the frontline Heer units as much, but the dozens of Landdescheutzen battalions were mostly equipped with French small arms.

Captured small arms were also used to arm various collaborator troops, usually with non-standard caliber for the area in order to control ammo flow in case of defection. Hence in Serbia collaborator militias (that Germans considered extremely low reliability and often defected) were armed with MAS36, MAC24/29 LMG, Lee-Enfield*, Dutch Lewis LMGs etc, all of which were practically unknown caliber in the area (until British started supplying .303).

*Something like 90% of L-E in inventory in 1945 came via Germans.

[Markus Becker]

5 hours ago, bojan said:

*Something like 90% of L-E in inventory in 1945 came via Germans.

What happened to them? Returned as Lend Lease, retained(and rechambered) or sold as surplus? 

 

BTW, it seems the Wehrmacht's first SPAG were partially Beutewaffen. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/10.5_cm_leFH_16_Geschützwagen_Mk_VI_736_(e)

Edited September 7 by Markus Becker

[RichTO90]

8 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

There was two sections of that atlantic wall that seemed to use British Vickers AA guns as anti maritime weapons. Which illustrates perhaps how many guns they got, and how hard up they were for anti ship weapons. They were at one point, emplacing 88's they had removed from Uboats to cover the wall as well.

2./H.K.A.-Abtl.1282 at Royan had six British 4.5" guns - where they came from I have no idea.

Bttr. Seeziel (Zuidzand, Zandvoort)/M.A.A. 201, Bttr. Scheveningen/M.A.A. 205, Heyst aan Zee/M.A.A. 203, Bttr. Blankenese/M.A.A. 260  each had four "Vickers" 3.7" guns.

Flak-Bttr. Malo Terminus/M.A.A. 244 had three as did Flak-Bttr. Le Portel Flugplatz/M.A.A. 240 and Bttr. Südmole/M.A.A. 266.

Westkapelle/M.A.A. 202 had four and Ostkapelle/M.A.A. 202 had three.

So at least 32 of them as of 1 June 1944. Six were designated "Flak", which likely meant they were set up primarily in that role. They others were either dual purpose of exclusively in the coast defense role.

The 8.8cm guns in the Atlantik Wall were probably not taken from U-Boot and there were few of them. I have only confirmed them at Brest with 6./M.A.A. 262. They had three 8.8cm SKC.35 in UBootslafette C/35. Most of the rest of the 8.8cm guns in the Wall may be identified as Pak43/1 or Flak 37/38/41. There were also some ex-Soviet 8.5cm relinered to 8.8cm, both M31 and M38.

More common was the ex-Torepdobooteskanone, the 10.5cm SKC32, which was mounted on the 8.8cm Marine pivot Lafette C/300 and the 10.5cm SKL/60 in Einheitslafette.

[bojan]

1 hour ago, Markus Becker said:

What happened to them? Returned as Lend Lease, retained(and rechambered) or sold as surplus? 

Some sent to Greek communists in 1946-48, some to Israel in 1948. Possibly someone else also, but only those two are known for sure. They were no longer in 1958. weapons inventory.

 

[RETAC21]

2 hours ago, RichTO90 said:

2./H.K.A.-Abtl.1282 at Royan had six British 4.5" guns - where they came from I have no idea.

This?

https://ra39-45.co.uk/guns-equipment/4-5-inch-anti-aircraft-gun

Or this?

https://ra39-45.co.uk/guns-equipment/4-5-inch-medium-gun

Because the BL 4.5 inch went with the BEF and were lost in the continent.

[RichTO90]

4 hours ago, RETAC21 said:

This?

https://ra39-45.co.uk/guns-equipment/4-5-inch-anti-aircraft-gun

Or this?

https://ra39-45.co.uk/guns-equipment/4-5-inch-medium-gun

Because the BL 4.5 inch went with the BEF and were lost in the continent.

No 4.5" Medium Guns went to France. They did not exist yet. The guns lost in France were 60-pdr (19) and 4.5" 60-pdr (32), which is why I was unclear where they came from or what they were. The Germans reference them as the Fremdengeraete 365 (e).

No, they were also not 4.5" AA. Those were only in Britain and Malta at the time.

[On the way]

20 hours ago, RichTO90 said:

As of 1 March 1944, OB West utilized 3,486 captured field artillery pieces, mostly French and Soviet, but also considerable Belgian and Dutch pieces. The Luftwaffe in France used dozens of ex-British 3.7" AA guns. Hundreds of ex-French tanks and other armored vehicles were used, as were tens of thousands of trucks. Most of the occupation troops - not the frontline Heer units as much, but the dozens of Landdescheutzen battalions were mostly equipped with French small arms.

So in effect, seems like a lot of Allied weaponry was used against the Allies during the Operation Overlord. 

[RichTO90]

1 hour ago, On the way said:

So in effect, seems like a lot of Allied weaponry was used against the Allies during the Operation Overlord. 

Sure. The Germans also used a lot of it against the Soviets. The only thing it demonstrates is just how desperate the Germans were.

[arcweasel]

3 hours ago, RichTO90 said:

No 4.5" Medium Guns went to France. They did not exist yet. The guns lost in France were 60-pdr (19) and 4.5" 60-pdr (32), which is why I was unclear where they came from or what they were. The Germans reference them as the Fremdengeraete 365 (e).

No, they were also not 4.5" AA. Those were only in Britain and Malta at the time.

Could they have come from the UK retreat from Greece?

[RichTO90]

17 minutes ago, arcweasel said:

Could they have come from the UK retreat from Greece?

I'm trying to remember if a medium regiment went to Greece? And, never mind, Leo comes through again. 7th and 64th Medium Regiments RA went to Greece.

Of course, the six could have been 60-pdr or 4.5"/60-pdr from Dunkirk as well. I doubt the Germans knew the difference. Unless there is some more info on just what the 365 (e) was we are just guessing.

Edited September 8 by RichTO90

[Stuart Galbraith]

16 hours ago, RichTO90 said:

2./H.K.A.-Abtl.1282 at Royan had six British 4.5" guns - where they came from I have no idea.

Bttr. Seeziel (Zuidzand, Zandvoort)/M.A.A. 201, Bttr. Scheveningen/M.A.A. 205, Heyst aan Zee/M.A.A. 203, Bttr. Blankenese/M.A.A. 260  each had four "Vickers" 3.7" guns.

Flak-Bttr. Malo Terminus/M.A.A. 244 had three as did Flak-Bttr. Le Portel Flugplatz/M.A.A. 240 and Bttr. Südmole/M.A.A. 266.

Westkapelle/M.A.A. 202 had four and Ostkapelle/M.A.A. 202 had three.

So at least 32 of them as of 1 June 1944. Six were designated "Flak", which likely meant they were set up primarily in that role. They others were either dual purpose of exclusively in the coast defense role.

The 8.8cm guns in the Atlantik Wall were probably not taken from U-Boot and there were few of them. I have only confirmed them at Brest with 6./M.A.A. 262. They had three 8.8cm SKC.35 in UBootslafette C/35. Most of the rest of the 8.8cm guns in the Wall may be identified as Pak43/1 or Flak 37/38/41. There were also some ex-Soviet 8.5cm relinered to 8.8cm, both M31 and M38.

More common was the ex-Torepdobooteskanone, the 10.5cm SKC32, which was mounted on the 8.8cm Marine pivot Lafette C/300 and the 10.5cm SKL/60 in Einheitslafette.

Yeah, that was It I think, its in the Osprey book.

Thanks for the rest. So more likely the guns would have come from S boats?

Edited September 8 by Stuart Galbraith

[Stuart Galbraith]

5 hours ago, arcweasel said:

Could they have come from the UK retreat from Greece?

We do seem to have sold guns onto the continent. Im sure Ive read that at least some of these came from stocks held other than the UK. No idea whom, if thats even true.

[Markus Becker]

6 hours ago, RichTO90 said:

Sure. The Germans also used a lot of it against the Soviets. The only thing it demonstrates is just how desperate the Germans were.

Not desperation but sustainability or as they would have said at the time frugality. 

If you have come to ...😇 acquire perfectly good but non standard equipment and sometimes even industry that's capable of continuing production, why not? 

 

What foreign arty did we use against the USSR a lot? The Czech stuff and the French 75s turned AT guns?

[bojan]

2 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

We do seem to have sold guns onto the continent. Im sure Ive read that at least some of these came from stocks held other than the UK. No idea whom, if thats even true.

4.5" wasn't sold to anyone in Europe before war since only 19 were produced until end of 1939.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Might have been the Vickers 3.7's then.

There was actually a really nice book from the Waffen Arsenal collection that delineated where a lot of it came from.

https://archive.org/details/wa39beuteflakbeiderwehrmacht19391945/page/n49/mode/2up?q=flak

I read somewhere (think it was a book I have on British AA Command) there were also British Pomp pom guns that were captured at Dunkirk.

[Stuart Galbraith]

BTW Rich, slightly on a tangent, dont know if this one is of any interest to you? I found it very useful in conjunction with Google Earth to figure out where all these places were.

https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B09SJ3DD7F?ref_=dbs_m_mng_rwt_calw_tkin_17&storeType=ebooks

[RichTO90]

9 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Yeah, that was It I think, its in the Osprey book.

Thanks for the rest. So more likely the guns would have come from S boats?

The 8.8cm? No, they may have come from T-Boot, but the S-Boot largest armament was 4cm FlaK 28 or 3.7cm SKC/30.

There were also a lot of earlier naval 8.8cm guns on different mounts that may have been used but in many cases they are only identified as 8.8cm so it is difficult to tell for sure.

[RichTO90]

8 hours ago, Markus Becker said:

What foreign arty did we use against the USSR a lot? The Czech stuff and the French 75s turned AT guns?

Lots of French 15.5cm guns and howitzers in coast artillery. Some of the "French" 75s were actually Belgian.