X-Files Posted June 20, 2024 Posted June 20, 2024 (edited) Only a window-licking Phillistine would bury the obituary of the Patron Saint of Tankers in some generic thread. The Canadian actor Donald Sutherland, star of films including The Hunger Games and Don't Look Now, has died at 88 after a long illness. Donald Sutherland dies aged 88 (bbc.com) Bonus - Something I never noticed before in KELLYS HEROES - when Oddball and friends reach the bridge (while it's still up), look at the guy on the left. Black beret, leather vest over wool shit = British tank crewman. https://i.ytimg.com/vi/7whUrNACWxE/maxresdefault.jpg Edited June 20, 2024 by X-Files
X-Files Posted June 20, 2024 Author Posted June 20, 2024 21 minutes ago, sunday said: Gate Keepers gotta Gate Keep
rmgill Posted June 20, 2024 Posted June 20, 2024 1 hour ago, X-Files said: Black beret, leather vest over wool shit = British tank crewman. https://i.ytimg.com/vi/7whUrNACWxE/maxresdefault.jpg Having worn this in an AFV, they're comfy. You can have extra warmth or protection (or rain resistance) to your upper torso without having all the added bulk lower down. And the berets are comfy under headsets. And it's easy to take off or put on in the turret without too much trouble. Some Brits in WWII in the cars would have a seamstress combine a great coat with a leather jerken. They called em recce coats. They usually had sleeves from the great coat, perhaps the collar and pockets for cold hands. Sometimes more liner, but no tails of the great coat. Less to get caught up in the LRCs and scout cars.
rmgill Posted June 20, 2024 Posted June 20, 2024 1 hour ago, X-Files said: Gate Keepers gotta Gate Keep Stop it with the negative waves! It's a beautiful thread.
X-Files Posted June 20, 2024 Author Posted June 20, 2024 The guy who wrote the script for KELLYS HEROES must have done his homework, to the point of having some candid discussions with vets. In addition to coming across obscure 1943-45 newspaper crime articles (like the US Army Major of Italian descent from NYC who robbed a safe in Rome and subsequently disappeared), I can remember reading an article in one of the better survivalist rags (mid 80s, newsprint publication) on the (estimated) 50k deserters (US/UK/German) between Paris and the front line who were fueling the black market by robbing the Red Ball line (black troops wouldn't resist). LOOMPANIC'S GOLDEN RECORDS loompanics golden records - Google Search Other riveting articles (which should be taken with a good dose of salt) are editorial-style exposes, like “Johnny Sold His Gun," which attempts to document an unknown trend of desertion in Second World War Europe, giving way to an underground of AWOL G.l. hoodlums. p.72
rmgill Posted June 20, 2024 Posted June 20, 2024 There was a large number of folks in the UK who had deserted. It was apparently very bad in 1944. https://www.amazon.com/Underworld-War-Deserters-Racketeers-Civilians/dp/0719557321
Stuart Galbraith Posted June 21, 2024 Posted June 21, 2024 (edited) 18 hours ago, X-Files said: Only a window-licking Phillistine would bury the obituary of the Patron Saint of Tankers in some generic thread. The Canadian actor Donald Sutherland, star of films including The Hunger Games and Don't Look Now, has died at 88 after a long illness. Donald Sutherland dies aged 88 (bbc.com) Bonus - Something I never noticed before in KELLYS HEROES - when Oddball and friends reach the bridge (while it's still up), look at the guy on the left. Black beret, leather vest over wool shit = British tank crewman. https://i.ytimg.com/vi/7whUrNACWxE/maxresdefault.jpg I love the guy in th Fez. Clearly the crew spent some time in the middle east (presumably where Oddballs head was turned by sampling the local produce). I dont think he is meant to British, or at least he isnt mentioned as such in the book (There was a British Airman that ended up on the cutting room floor). I think most likely he was meant to have acquired the gear from someone else. One British tank crewman said in his book he managed to get a Tommy Gun off an American tank crew, just by swapping rations, so it did happen. And of course, they had wild parties... 16 hours ago, X-Files said: The guy who wrote the script for KELLYS HEROES must have done his homework, to the point of having some candid discussions with vets. In addition to coming across obscure 1943-45 newspaper crime articles (like the US Army Major of Italian descent from NYC who robbed a safe in Rome and subsequently disappeared), I can remember reading an article in one of the better survivalist rags (mid 80s, newsprint publication) on the (estimated) 50k deserters (US/UK/German) between Paris and the front line who were fueling the black market by robbing the Red Ball line (black troops wouldn't resist). LOOMPANIC'S GOLDEN RECORDS loompanics golden records - Google Search Other riveting articles (which should be taken with a good dose of salt) are editorial-style exposes, like “Johnny Sold His Gun," which attempts to document an unknown trend of desertion in Second World War Europe, giving way to an underground of AWOL G.l. hoodlums. p.72 He certainly did his research. Troy Kennedy Martin was a scriptwriter whom worked on a LOT of projects, from the Italian Job (which which Kellys Heros has a lot of similarity in some ways) and the recent film 'Ferrari. His best known work was Edge of Darkness, which he seems to have even named the American CIA man 'Jedburgh' after the Anglo/American teams that dropped into France with SOE. Which was a pretty deep dive, considering the areas the series went into. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy_Kennedy_Martin The plot, there have been long standing allegations that at the end of the war, certain members of the US Army walked off with a large chunk of the 3rd Reichs Gold reserve (I think it was in Bavaria, but I would have to look it up). None of them were ever caught, the gold was never recovered, and even 40 years later, the US Army was distinctly unwilling to try and find whom was behind it. I dont believe they actually deserted however. It seems to have been a lot more creative than that. Edited June 21, 2024 by Stuart Galbraith
rmgill Posted June 21, 2024 Posted June 21, 2024 1 hour ago, Stuart Galbraith said: I love the guy in th Fez. Clearly the crew spent some time in the middle east (presumably where Oddballs head was turned by sampling the local produce). Tunisia probably. Operation Torch. Kinda more North West Africa.
Stuart Galbraith Posted June 21, 2024 Posted June 21, 2024 Could be. Supposedly he is 6th Armored Division which was never there, but I think whilst he was in Britain there was an excellent chance he was transferred from the 2nd Armored Division, which had been in Morroco in November 1942. Perhaps they were levying out battle experience men to leaven the green 6th Armored. Which would explain why he was distinctly war weary, and holding himself back in reserve whilst everyone else was knocking themselves out to win the war. Basically, the poor sod earned it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2nd_Armored_Division_(United_States) There is probably some good fan fiction to be written here....
rmgill Posted June 21, 2024 Posted June 21, 2024 6th armored was formed from a cadre from 2nd armored.
Stuart Galbraith Posted June 22, 2024 Posted June 22, 2024 Well there you go then, it all fits. Like I say, Kennedy Martin was reknowned for research, I wouldnt even be surprised if he was an armour enthusiast.
rmgill Posted June 22, 2024 Posted June 22, 2024 Considering they made an effort to make the tigers look like tigers...well. It's not surprising. Unlike that other movie.
Stuart Galbraith Posted June 22, 2024 Posted June 22, 2024 Did I read somewhere that the guy doing the uniforms was Andrew Mollo? Because he was a reknowned military uniform expert in the 60's and 70's. He was an advisor on 'It cant happen here' for example. Used to write articles in Military Modelling, and modellers reference books. He isnt listed here, but Ive a nagging feeling he was involved. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Mollo But yes, the Tigers were interesting. Yes, they are not exactly the variant used in Normandy having the old drum hatch. But they actually tried to have an authentic paint scheme (complete with red numerals) and nearly the right key marking on the front plate for 101st SS Heavy Tank battalion, or Wittmans old mob. Which to me suggests someone on the production crew knew something about the Villers Bocage Battle. Its a shame about battle of the bulge. The early battle sequences are quite good. It actually LOOKS in places like the battle of the bulge. Then they throw it away for that huge tank wrestling match on what presumably was the Fort Knox training ground that looked nothing like the Ardennes. I much prefer Bridge at Remagen, a much better film all round.
Tim Sielbeck Posted June 22, 2024 Posted June 22, 2024 12 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said: Its a shame about battle of the bulge. The early battle sequences are quite good. It actually LOOKS in places like the battle of the bulge. Then they throw it away for that huge tank wrestling match on what presumably was the Fort Knox training ground that looked nothing like the Ardennes. I much prefer Bridge at Remagen, a much better film all round. Was filmed in Spain using Spanish Army. The US wasn't using M47s (or M24s) when it was made.
Stuart Galbraith Posted June 22, 2024 Posted June 22, 2024 (edited) Thanks, I didnt know that. I guess explains the spaghetti western look of the latter part of the the film. Incidentally, if anyone wants a tutorial on how bad WW2 films can get, I would encourage watching this gem. The British attack with M113's, all in historically accurate tactical markings... Edited June 22, 2024 by Stuart Galbraith
Rick Posted June 22, 2024 Posted June 22, 2024 Saw "Kelly's Heroes" last night after several years. Hard to believe it was filmed 54 years ago.
R011 Posted June 22, 2024 Posted June 22, 2024 Not many places in the sixties where you could get a company of running WW2 Panzers or even VVS 75 mm Shermans. Getting a couple of vismod T-34-85 "Tigers" and M4AxE3 was doing very well indeed. I thought M47 "Koenigstiger" and M24 "Shermans" were reasonable stand-ins in 60's films. Mind you, the movies still had to be well written and made and some weren't quite.
bojan Posted June 22, 2024 Posted June 22, 2024 (edited) 6 hours ago, rmgill said: Considering they made an effort to make the tigers look like tigers...well. It's not surprising. Mockups (well, multiple types, more detailed for close in shots and less detailed ones for a distance shots of massed tanks) were made originally for a local movie, "Battle of Neretva" IIRC. That one also featured L-6/40 mockup made on M5 light artillery tractor: And L-3 tankette, also made on basis of some light tractor: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0064091/?ref_=tt_mv_close Edited June 22, 2024 by bojan
rmgill Posted June 22, 2024 Posted June 22, 2024 I wonder how many restored Sherman's could be scratched up for a movie opposite the replicas that have cropped up in the reenactor community. At Reading this year there were 2 rather well done Panzer IIIs (one long, one short barrel 5.0 cm) and two stugs. All on modified FV432 hulls. Add to that 2 SdKfz 251 half tracks from OT810s, a Maultier, severl blitzes, Replica Autounion Horch and an SdKfz 47 armored car, a type I have NEVER seen before. And bunches of kubels, a staff car and other odds. Theres even some french re-enactors with a lovely Traction Avant so they can relive that scene in the great escape at Cafe Suzzette.
Stuart Galbraith Posted June 22, 2024 Posted June 22, 2024 I love Citroen Avants. As a company they were such great stylists at the time. This site I've found quite useful. https://www.imcdb.org/movie_65938-Kelly-s-Heroes.html
X-Files Posted June 24, 2024 Author Posted June 24, 2024 Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, people. 🙄 Movie was filmed in Yugoslavia.
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