Spain during WW2

[futon]

Spain has maintained neutrality throughout the war although staying neutral involved a lot. Some spanish voluntered to fight for the Axis in Eastern Europe while ISTR there was one Spanish (Spanish Canadian?) individual that was doing a little intelligence while in Canada for the allies about Japanese movements. How and what were the trials, as well as the pay offs or costs, in Spain maintaining neutrality? 

[futon]

This seems to have much on the topic.

https://www.portierramaryaire.com/arts/espana_sgm_1.php

[sunday]

Especially on the measures and actions need to implement/take to defend the Atlantic shores, and the Canary Islands, in case the Suez Canal falls in hands of the Axis.

[seahawk]

Which nevertheless saw a lot of construction work and new coastal batteries being built.

https://patrimoniomilitarg.wixsite.com/patrimoniomilitargc/bateras-de-costa

[futon]

For a frigate commander, Blanco seemed quite knowledgeable about state economics. 

The capturing the Suez Canal may be too simple of trigger. Judging how securely it's captured would have to matter since a counter attack should be expected later. Some buffer area around the red sea. What would be the plans with Egypt and Sudan? If just handed over to Italian control, then those people likely side with the British which lends towards a counter-attack, even if a year later.

[sunday]

13 minutes ago, futon said:

For a frigate commander, Blanco seemed quite knowledgeable about state economics. 

The capturing the Suez Canal may be too simple of trigger. Judging how securely it's captured would have to matter since a counter attack should be expected later. Some buffer area around the red sea. What would be the plans with Egypt and Sudan? If just handed over to Italian control, then those people likely side with the British which lends towards a counter-attack, even if a year later.

The Armada rank was, and still is, capitán de fragata. The USN/RN equivalent is Commander. Three stripes in the cuff, equivalent an Army lieutenant colonel. Carrero (Blanco is the second surname) was a very competent man, and Spanish naval officers receive a very good education.

I think he did not delve on the details, but assumed Suez solidly in Axis hands before Spain could even think of entering the war.

[TrustMe]

I thought that most of the Spanish Armada was republican controlled during the civil war. What happened to it after the civil war Sunday?

[Markus Becker]

9 minutes ago, TrustMe said:

I thought that most of the Spanish Armada was republican controlled during the civil war. What happened to it after the civil war Sunday?

I seem to recall a more even split. Anyway, what survived went to France when everything fell apart and was quickly returned to the new government. 

WRT Spain joining,...only like Italy did in 1940. When everything was decided already. Spain wasn't such a great power in 1935 compared to say Italy and by 39 the country was a bit worse for the wear. And still internally decided. Importing a lot of food from overseas too. 

 

 

[sunday]

10 minutes ago, TrustMe said:

I thought that most of the Spanish Armada was republican controlled during the civil war. What happened to it after the civil war Sunday?

The ships yes. But they slaughtered the officer corps wholesale, like the Communist Russians did with the Czarist naval officers. More than a few did not know about the Rising before some sailors came to arrest them. Carrero lost his father and a brother in that way.

Republican authorities had to put a stop to that because they were going to be in a situation when they could not put recognized officers at the helm of their ships, thus making it easy to declare their ships as pirate.

For what happened to the naval officers who served the war on the Red side, this quora answer is pretty good.

[TrustMe]

Thanks for your answers guys.

[RETAC21]

13 minutes ago, Markus Becker said:

I seem to recall a more even split. Anyway, what survived went to France when everything fell apart and was quickly returned to the new government. 

WRT Spain joining,...only like Italy did in 1940. When everything was decided already. Spain wasn't such a great power in 1935 compared to say Italy and by 39 the country was a bit worse for the wear. And still internally decided. Importing a lot of food from overseas too. 

 

 

No, it wasn't an even split, in fact, in July 1936 the Nationalist navy had only 3-4 operational warships, though others were brought into services as soon as possible. The wholesale murder of officers mentioned by Sunday was also followed by many officers preferring to hide, defect or take postings ashore, so merchant mariners had to substitute for regular officers just to get the ships to their destination. Soviet officers were seconded as "volunteers" to try to get some order in the ships but it was for naught mostly and to add insult to injury, the Nationalist navy managed to take control of the Gibraltar strait when the bulk of the Republican Navy sailed north to break the blockade... and then did nothing of note. 

It was only in late 1937-1938 that a modicum of discipline and order was established and some very limited operations were attempted (one of which ended up with the sinking of the nationalist cruiser Baleares) but in 1939, with the war going to be lost, the fleet abandoned Cartagena when there was a nationalist uprising and sailed to Bizerte in Tunisia, from where it was recovered by the nationalists. A couple of destroyers were damaged by air attacks and were left behind and the older subs were in no shape to go anywhere and were abandoned. Post-war, the material state of all ships was appalling and the first order of business was maintenance, so, for most of WW2, Spain had Canarias and a few destroyers and submarines, despite big plans to develop a substantial fleet that matured over the late 40s-50s in a bunch of rather poor destroyers and escorts.

[RETAC21]

2 hours ago, futon said:

Spain has maintained neutrality throughout the war although staying neutral involved a lot. Some spanish voluntered to fight for the Axis in Eastern Europe while ISTR there was one Spanish (Spanish Canadian?) individual that was doing a little intelligence while in Canada for the allies about Japanese movements. How and what were the trials, as well as the pay offs or costs, in Spain maintaining neutrality? 

It should be noted that Spanish neutrality came and went a bit. When Germany invaded Poland in 1939, Spain declared strict neutrality as Franco was nonplussed at the invasion of a Catholic country, but when France fell and Germany became a neighbor unexpectedly, it switched to non-belligerency, meaning it was allied with Italy and Germany but not fighting shoulder to shoulder.

For a very short window after the Fall of France and before the Battle of Britain, Spain was ready to join the Axis in the war, but the Germans weren't interested on either sharing the booty nor pissing the French off (as they would have to give up Morocco and half of Algeria). When the Battle of Britain didn't go Germany's way, the Germans became much more interested but Spanish enthusiasm had cooled off (hence, when Hitler met Franco at Hendaye, he compared the meeting to a visit to the dentist), however, Spain was under much pressure until Barbarossa.

The invasion of the USSR gave Franco an excuse to stay out of the war while helping with the sending of the Blue Division, the Blue squadron and volunteers to the Kriegsmarine. Despite some initial enthusiasm and plenty of volunteers, as the war wore on, the Division had some difficulties that culminated with the Battle of Krasny Bor in 1943 (better known as Operation Iskra to Russian front historians) and it was recalled, with just a single regimental size "legion" left behind, which performed much poorly, so the Germans weren't really sad when it was pulled out in '44.

Neutrality became again more strict when the US joined the war (mainly because they were supplying the fuel needed) and Torch was allowed to proceed with minimum warning to the Germans, though there was still collaboration (see Operation Mincemeat). Still, in 1943 the Pyrinees were fortified, just in case.

By the time of Stalingrad and subsequent Italian surrender, the position moved to strict neutrality once again and some critical materials were embargoed. Franco expected some leniency for this post-war, and despite pressures from Stalin to do away with him, Churchill allowed his survival, but Spain was slapped with total isolation from the post-war world, with the exception of Argentina, only coming out again in 1953.

Republican refugees fought in WW2, mainly on the ranks of the French Foreign Legion and the Leclerc division, though communist cadres were integrated in the NKVD division and some pilots fought in the Soviet VVS. In 1944, the Communist party gathered its cadres from the Resistance to invade Spain and start a guerrilla war, but it didn't end well.

[seahawk]

Gaining El Ferrol was the key for the Nationalists during La GuerrGuerra civil española. Attached is a link to how they got Canarias ready and how the broke the blockade of the Franco troops in Morocco.

https://www.kbismarck.com/canarias2.html

Edited May 6 by seahawk

[RETAC21]

13 minutes ago, seahawk said:

Gaining El Ferrol was the key for the Nationalists during La GuerrGuerra civil española. Attached is a link to how they got Canarias ready and how the broke the blockade of the Franco troops in Morocco.

https://www.kbismarck.com/canarias2.html

Oddly enough, the Navy didn't figure on the planning of the coup, which explains why things went South so fast.

[Markus Becker]

1 hour ago, RETAC21 said:

Oddly enough, the Navy didn't figure on the planning of the coup, which explains why things went South so fast.

Coup being the key phrase. 

This shitshow was not supposed to be a three year war, just another quick replacement of the government. Why would you need the squids for that? Army/police is who you need. 

[RETAC21]

25 minutes ago, Markus Becker said:

Coup being the key phrase. 

This shitshow was not supposed to be a three year war, just another quick replacement of the government. Why would you need the squids for that? Army/police is who you need. 

Yes, well, but then the plotters had Franco fly to Africa to take command of the African Army and used a couple of destroyers to take legionnaires and regulares to Cadiz (which tipped the balance there) before the crew clued up and mutinied.

I think the idea was that it was expected that the Navy would join the coup by default while the Air Forces was sure to be Republican and what wasn't expected was the Republicans taking over the central radio station in Madrid and broadcasting for the crews to mutiny (new technologies and all that). Franco even made a point of his speech to the Navy in Vinaroz in 1938 to emphasize that officers needed to command the respect of their subordinates... which didn't sat particularly well. Franco has a love/hate relationship with the Navy, having been turned down at naval school.

[seahawk]

Still they had more than 24 hours before Ferrol fell into the hands of Nationalists. And nobody seriously tried to sabotage the ships.

[RETAC21]

2 hours ago, seahawk said:

Still they had more than 24 hours before Ferrol fell into the hands of Nationalists. And nobody seriously tried to sabotage the ships.

Conditions were rather chaotic, initially only the Army of Africa rebelled, and the Government thought they could keep the rebellion contained there, plus there was a change of government going on, which meant a lot of people were sitting on the wall waiting to see what happens. In many places, the coup went ahead or not depending on the actions of a few people and many were caught in the middle.

For example, my great grandfather (retired LTC) thought the coup had no chance and then got arrested and murdered by Socialist militias, my wife's grandfather (Navy LT) was looking for housing in Madrid prior to starting the Naval Warfare College in Sept and had to hide with wife and kids. He managed to get the family safely to an embassy but he had to remain behind and was eventually drafted as a private in the Republican Army. Tried to desert in 1939 to Mallorca but was caught, sentenced to death and only saved because the war ended. These experiences were not unique by any means.

[seahawk]

3 minutes ago, RETAC21 said:

Conditions were rather chaotic, initially only the Army of Africa rebelled, and the Government thought they could keep the rebellion contained there, plus there was a change of government going on, which meant a lot of people were sitting on the wall waiting to see what happens. In many places, the coup went ahead or not depending on the actions of a few people and many were caught in the middle.

For example, my great grandfather (retired LTC) thought the coup had no chance and then got arrested and murdered by Socialist militias, my wife's grandfather (Navy LT) was looking for housing in Madrid prior to starting the Naval Warfare College in Sept and had to hide with wife and kids. He managed to get the family safely to an embassy but he had to remain behind and was eventually drafted as a private in the Republican Army. Tried to desert in 1939 to Mallorca but was caught, sentenced to death and only saved because the war ended. These experiences were not unique by any means.

But still it is surprising, that neither the pro-Republican sailors of the lower ranks nor the factory workers in the shipyard sabotaged the two cruisers. Obviously it is understandable, as many believed that the nationalist up-rising would not stand a chance and the Republican response was badly co-ordinated and planed. Especially if you consider the history of violence and segregation between the military personal and the workers in Ferrol. The Republican government as well as the workers unions completely missed the importance of Ferrol.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/231752761_'A_tale_of_two_cities'_The_memory_of_Ferrol_between_the_Navy_and_the_working_class

[RETAC21]

6 minutes ago, seahawk said:

But still it is surprising, that neither the pro-Republican sailors of the lower ranks nor the factory workers in the shipyard sabotaged the two cruisers. Obviously it is understandable, as many believed that the nationalist up-rising would not stand a chance and the Republican response was badly co-ordinated and planed. Especially if you consider the history of violence and segregation between the military personal and the workers in Ferrol. The Republican government as well as the workers unions completely missed the importance of Ferrol.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/231752761_'A_tale_of_two_cities'_The_memory_of_Ferrol_between_the_Navy_and_the_working_class

No, they didn't, their priority was setting up a revolutionary committee and the killing off the officers and upper classes. It didn't figure on their immediate priority that they may lose and it might make sense to disable the ships. The order of business was: 1) get weapons 2) take power 3) start the executions. In Ferrol they got stuck on point 1, but in other places, the armories were opened to the masses and revolution ensued.

See Cartagena (machine translate from here: https://www.laverdad.es/murcia/cartagena/201407/19/alzamiento-revolucion-1936-20140719004251-v.html?ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.laverdad.es%2Fmurcia%2Fcartagena%2F201407%2F19%2Falzamiento-revolucion-1936-20140719004251-v.html)

"Friday July 17

The city had experienced a truly turbulent day caused by the indefinite general strike that had been going on since the 14th, in solidarity with the Canales de Riego workers. The population was still digesting the events that occurred by the well-known criminal nicknamed 'El Chipé' and his subsequent public lynching in the streets, in a preview of the violence that was coming soon.

That morning, the officers in favor of the uprising had waited for signals for its start; the uprising should be launched from Valencia, which was the military headquarters; command of the uprising would be for the entire military region, including the Naval Base of Cartagena.

Throughout this day the troops who had taken to the streets to control possible altercations returned to the Arsenal without incident.

Already in the afternoon, rumors about an uprising of the African army were spreading throughout the base and through the Arsenal itself, there was intense nervousness, because the uprising movement was opposed by another counter-uprising of the elements that were not willing to remain impassive. Faced with such an event, republican cells from the different crews of the ships and the Arsenal, led by middle and auxiliary managers, many of them with deep connections in Freemasonry.

Saturday July 18

Franco's proclamation was received at the Arsenal at 10 in the morning on July 18. At that moment is when the radio station is controlled by elements related to the Government, who intercept the messages sent by the rebels and broadcast only those that were governmental in nature.

Despite the vast majority of the officers being in favor of the uprising, no one wants to assume its leadership, and even once Franco's message has been received, it is the Navy commanders themselves who transfer its content to the military governor, so that he can be the one. who takes the appropriate measures and declares a state of war in the city.

But General Toribio Martínez Cabrera is openly faithful to the republican government, under pressure and not feeling safe to control the uprising with his loyal forces, he manages to deceive the rebels to delay this declaration, until he personally moves to Valencia and there receives the official declaration of the uprising by the captain general of the Levante area. It is nothing more than a ploy to buy time, knowing first-hand that in Valencia the generals of the organic division also remained loyal to Madrid.

As night falls, it is confirmed that the forces in the garrison are no longer going to join the uprising, General Martínez Cabrera orders regular Army troops to take positions with the intention of quelling any movement against the Madrid government.

Sunday July 19

At dawn the next day, the pessimism of the rebels is total and even more so when they learn that the ships' crews have mutinied and have arrested their officers.

The first incident with victims and, therefore, the first fatal consequence of the uprising and therefore of the Civil War in Cartagena will be the death of lieutenant Ángel González López, at the hands of stoker Dionisio Marchante. The latter, exalted by the climate of tension experienced in the Arsenal throughout the day of July 18, met the officer in front of the Submarine Base building and without practically saying a word, shot him at point-blank range the entire magazine of his pistol. It seems that the stoker carried out this action on the lieutenant more than for any other reason than the fact that he was an officer; independent of his personal and ideological condition. The murder is witnessed by several witnesses who are looking out of the windows of the neighboring buildings. The attacker ran away, leaving his victim's body in a huge pool of blood. Immediately, an officer who was on duty went out in pursuit of Marchante, whom he shot repeatedly until seriously wounding him. Hours later, the stoker also died."

As you can see, planning for the coup was piss poor and the revolutionaries weren't much better.

 

[seahawk]

Yes, Cartagena is a highly interesting city in the Civil War. Not only did the Baterias de Costa sink the Castillo De Olite, the individual Baterias also fired on each other in the process. And the Castillito battery was the only one to ever fire against forces advancing from the land side. I am looking forward to explore more of the Baterias this summer.

Edited May 7 by seahawk

[RETAC21]

5 minutes ago, seahawk said:

Yes, Cartagena is a highly interesting city in the Civil War. Not only did the Baterias de Costa sink the Castillo De Olite, the individual Baterias also fired on each other in the process. And the Castillito battery was the only one to ever fire against forces advancing from the land side. I am looking forward to explore more of the Baterias this summer.

As you may already know, there are 2 military museums that are worth the visit (and free), plus the Parajola battery, which doesn't have any guns but it's worth just for the view:

https://www.xn--castillosdeespaa-lub.es/es/content/parajola-bateria-de-la

https://bateriascostacartagena.blogspot.com/2016/04/la-parajola-c-3.html

[seahawk]

38 minutes ago, RETAC21 said:

As you may already know, there are 2 military museums that are worth the visit (and free), plus the Parajola battery, which doesn't have any guns but it's worth just for the view:

https://www.xn--castillosdeespaa-lub.es/es/content/parajola-bateria-de-la

https://bateriascostacartagena.blogspot.com/2016/04/la-parajola-c-3.html

Yes, last time, I did the Roldan - Parajola hike. I am planning to go to just Parajola again. Will also do the 4 baterias around Castillitos again.

I am still missing, but will correct this later this year:

Bateria San Juan de la Podadera

Castillo de Galeras

Castillo de la Atalaya and tunels de Atalaya

More towards Murcia I must do: Casamata Puerto de la Cadena.

 

[seahawk]

Returning to the topic. Imho this whole story shows the deep difference between Spanish fascism under Franco and what Mussolini and Hitler envisioned. Spain and Franco were conservative. Especially the deep roots of Catholicism does differentiate the ideologies. 

Reading about the Civil War and the following decades, I wonder, if Franco would have done exactly the same things he did, but in the name of the Republic, would he be called a farther of modern Europe today?

[RETAC21]

8 hours ago, seahawk said:

Returning to the topic. Imho this whole story shows the deep difference between Spanish fascism under Franco and what Mussolini and Hitler envisioned. Spain and Franco were conservative. Especially the deep roots of Catholicism does differentiate the ideologies. 

Reading about the Civil War and the following decades, I wonder, if Franco would have done exactly the same things he did, but in the name of the Republic, would he be called a farther of modern Europe today?

Fascism wasn't an integral part of the Franco regime, which, at its core, was the regime of a single military man, supported by the Army, the Catholic Church and the middle classes. When in the 60s the Catholic Church started distancing itself from the regime, the middle classes were large enough that the regime remained stable but it died with Franco. No effort at all was made to set up a proper single party state despite the creation of the FET JONS and the look alike Fascist regime. Franco chose who had power and who didn't and the fascist and Carlists were soon sidelined.